54 replies to this topic

[Mystere]

Waking One, on 24 July 2013 - 01:04 AM, said:

Funny how masses of players first asked for the PPC buffs back when you couldn't hit properly with them.

They need to be brought back to their old values: slowed down and heat increased.

No, no, and hell no to the highlighted item.

[3rdworld]

DaZur, on 24 July 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

PPC / EPPC (and Gauss) are apex ranged weapons... As they conically should be.

The problem is not that the PPC is overpowered... It's because it lacks a soft balance mechanism (heat / cycle-time) and they are equally useful inside brawl-range. This creates the scenario where the remaining weapons are bypassed in favor of the PPC because their is little incentification to utilize them in favor of the PPC.

The PPCs don't need nerfing... They just need soft counters in place to re-position them as a "situational" weapon and not the one-size-fits-all weapon it presently represents.

This.

Instead Paul decided that we needed a "shooting x number of weapons is bad, mkay"

[Bishop Steiner]

Sorry if I can't agree.

And my primary mechs don't even mount PPCs. Long Range Weapons are always king in battle. PPC, Gauss. LRMs. The only time they are not is when they can't see you. Every map has ample cover.


Use it.

I drive a VTR-9S w/ AC20, 3SRM6 and 2 Medium Lasers primarily, and since they heat scaling went into effect have found very little problem dealing with PPCs. LRMs are a slightly different story, as they have very interesting flight abilities, able to wrap around buildings that should be acting as cover. But at least those need some sort of spotter to be too dangerous.

[DaZur]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 July 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

Sorry if I can't agree.

And my primary mechs don't even mount PPCs. Long Range Weapons are always king in battle. PPC, Gauss. LRMs. The only time they are not is when they can't see you. Every map has ample cover.


Use it.

I drive a VTR-9S w/ AC20, 3SRM6 and 2 Medium Lasers primarily, and since they heat scaling went into effect have found very little problem dealing with PPCs. LRMs are a slightly different story, as they have very interesting flight abilities, able to wrap around buildings that should be acting as cover. But at least those need some sort of spotter to be too dangerous.

I witnessed first-hand your proficiency with that build last night...

[Bishop Steiner]

DaZur, on 24 July 2013 - 08:02 AM, said:

I witnessed first-hand your proficiency with that build last night...

Honestly, and no humble brag here, that wasn't one of my better matches. On the other hand, it was one of the more fun ones, as all 3 of our remaining mechs were a spitwad away from keeling over. I enjoy the matches where I do well, but have to fight so hard I look like swiss cheese after. When the MM sets up stomps in either direction, it gets boring!


*Also just checked, that was my 9B in the fight against you.

Not my "top tier" VTR. Haven't even unlocked all the basics on it yet. My "Killers" are the 9S listed above, and my Gauss/PPCx2 and SRM4 9K. I don't snipe, so I am surprised by how well those PPCs work still in close, but I realized finally it's my perchance for jumping all over the place that I somehow keep em in optimal range usually. *Shrugs* I am still deciding what my "Long-Term Build" will be on the 9B. I was considering making it a Stock unit again for giggles.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 July 2013 - 08:09 AM.

[keith]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 July 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

I drive a VTR-9S w/ AC20, 3SRM6 and 2 Medium Lasers primarily, and since they heat scaling went into effect have found very little problem dealing with PPCs. LRMs are a slightly different story, as they have very interesting flight abilities, able to wrap around buildings that should be acting as cover. But at least those need some sort of spotter to be too dangerous.

u know if u used cover before silly heat system, paul may have made a good system? cover worked before that system and still works now. nothing with the meta has changed, just how often u can fire and srms work again, was such a hard fix......

[DaZur]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 July 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Don't remember if I was in my Fatlas or my -3D...

I've mothballed my -1X (my bread'n butter mech) and have been piloting my Fatlas to grind up some dosh and I'm mastering the -3D (as well as trying the learn the art of JJ engagement)

I admit that was a fun match for the same reasons you mentioned... That said, I usually look like swiss cheese at the end of a match so that's no new treat for me...

[Bishop Steiner]

keith, on 24 July 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

u know if u used cover before silly heat system, paul may have made a good system? cover worked before that system and still works now. nothing with the meta has changed, just how often u can fire and srms work again, was such a hard fix......

Umm... changing how fast the weapons can fire and srms working is the definition of "Changing the meta", just for the record.

DaZur, on 24 July 2013 - 08:28 AM, said:

[/size]
Don't remember if I was in my Fatlas or my -3D...

I've mothballed my -1X (my bread'n butter mech) and have been piloting my Fatlas to grind up some dosh and I'm mastering the -3D (as well as trying the learn the art of JJ engagement)

I admit that was a fun match for the same reasons you mentioned... That said, I usually look like swiss cheese at the end of a match so that's no new treat for me...

and you were in your Phract-3D.

What killed me was an earlier match on Tourmaline...... 800+ dmg. 5 kills. 1 assist. And we lost. Why? Beginning of the match our k2 and an Atlas disco'd. I had the last 2 enemy mechs ready to pop, but nada left for armor, and my gauss was gone. Between being down 2, and having a 3rd contribute a whopping 128 pts of help from a Catapult............. So their Victor and Atlas finally legged me, and took me out. One more volley I woulda had the Vic, but that Atlas...... still fully armed. Ouch time!

So close. Was fun and frustrating at the same time.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 24 July 2013 - 08:40 AM.

[TLBFestus]

Sable, on 24 July 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

Before the Heat scale was introduced i used to run a dual AC/20 jagermech ............

This part of your post damaged your credibility with me.


That said, if they were to change the velocity of the PPC it wouldn't bother me a bit since it would affect everyone who uses it.

With luck it might create some more diversity in weapons loadouts.

Edited by TLBFestus, 24 July 2013 - 10:21 AM.

[El Bandito]

DaZur, on 24 July 2013 - 07:30 AM, said:

PPC / EPPC (and Gauss) are apex ranged weapons... As they conically should be. The problem is not that the PPC is overpowered... It's because it lacks a soft balance mechanism (heat / cycle-time) and they are equally useful inside brawl-range. This creates the scenario where the remaining weapons are bypassed in favor of the PPC because their is little incentification to utilize them in favor of the PPC. The PPCs don't need nerfing... They just need soft counters in place to re-position them as a "situational" weapon and not the one-size-fits-all weapon it presently represents.

Isn't implementing soft counters via heat/cycle time, as you suggested, the definition of a nerf?

[Sable]

Mystere, on 24 July 2013 - 07:36 AM, said:

No, no, and hell no to the highlighted item.

Well how about this. Instead of me trying to convince you why PPCs would be more balanced by not being lightning almost instant 1000m dps killing machines, lets take a different approach. Lets have you take a moment and try to present an argument why they should have the fastest travel speed for a projectile while also having one of the longest ranges, with infinite ammo?

It was fun when they were first buff because i've always liked PPCs. But after months i can't take them anymore. Please try to convince me why they should remain the same. I would very much like this insight.

Edited by Sable, 24 July 2013 - 11:09 AM.

[Mystere]

Sable, on 24 July 2013 - 11:07 AM, said:

Well how about this. Instead of me trying to convince you why PPCs would be more balanced by not being lightning almost instant 1000m dps killing machines, lets take a different approach. Lets have you take a moment and try to present an argument why they should have the fastest travel speed for a projectile while also having one of the longest ranges, with infinite ammo?

It was fun when they were first buff because i've always liked PPCs. But after months i can't take them anymore. Please try to convince me why they should remain the same. I would very much like this insight.

I am not saying that PPCs remain as they are. What I am saying is change anything (heat, cool down, damage, etc.) except their speed. Why? I find highly-charged particles traveling slower than ballistic projectiles very silly. it breaks immersion, at least for me.

[soarra]

put ppc heat back to what it was
and add:
PPCs are equipped with a Field Inhibitor to prevent feedback which could damage the firing unit's electronic systems.^[6] This inhibitor degrades the performance of the weapon at close ranges of less than 90 meters. Particularly daring warriors have been known to disengage the inhibitor and risk damage to their own machine when a target is at close range

[DaZur]

El Bandito, on 24 July 2013 - 10:30 AM, said:

Isn't implementing soft counters via heat/cycle time, as you suggested, the definition of a nerf?

In a sense yes & no...

The purpose and viability of the weapon does not change. Increasing either the heat or cycle-time distances them from middling weapons and re-positions them as pure ranged fire-support weapons.

Right now PPCs heat profile and cycle-times are too similar to the middling weapons... Because of this, why sport the middling weapons when your can front-load damage and suffer little repercussion for using them inside brawl range. (Slow cycle times would render then almost useless inside brawl range)...

Separating the apex weapons from the middling weapons would encourage their use by creating viable ranges for them that the apex would suffer within... It's a natural "balance" mechanism that does not exclude their usage and the role they were intended for.

[El Bandito]

DaZur, on 24 July 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

In a sense yes & no... The purpose and viability of the weapon does not change. Increasing either the heat or cycle-time distances them from middling weapons and re-positions them as pure ranged fire-support weapons. Right now PPCs heat profile and cycle-times are too similar to the middling weapons... Because of this, why sport the middling weapons when your can front-load damage and suffer little repercussion for using them inside brawl range. (Slow cycle times would render then almost useless inside brawl range)... Separating the apex weapons from the middling weapons would encourage their use by creating viable ranges for them that the apex would suffer within... It's a natural "balance" mechanism that does not exclude their usage and the role they were intended for.

What you said makes sense and I agree with further making PPCs and Gauss to be specialized in long range only through cooldowns and heat--in fact something similar in my Feature Suggestion thread. However, lets just not pretend the proposed change is nothing but a straight up nerf--since there is only the negative. Of course this proposed nerf simply "balances" PPCs and Gauss using minor nerf, while SSRM2 nerf of the 16th basically made the weapon useless to pick.

Edited by El Bandito, 24 July 2013 - 11:34 AM.

[Athena Pryde]

I remember PPC having a longer cycle time in previous Mechwarrior games. Something like 6 or even 8 seconds. Gaus Rifle also had a long cycle time. This would be a better balancing factor then the extra heat for alphaing which makes no sense and is not canon. So if your up close it makes sense to have some short ranged fast cycling weapons like medium lasers and short range missles because otherwise your waiting a long time to shoot again.

[jeffsw6]

TLBFestus, on 24 July 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

This part of your post damaged your credibility with me.

He lost credibility with you because he played AC/40 Jagermech? I do not understand that.

Honestly, the Jagermech has plenty of disadvantages, and the only thing that made it a real threat was the ability to boat two AC/20s or several AC/2s to deal surprising amounts of damage to unprepared opponents. It has crappy arms, mediocre armor, and must expose its CT to inflict any pain on enemies.

If we're suddenly not taking people seriously because they have played a popular boating build, well, everyone might as well make a secret forum alt now. I'm sure we have all played a PPC/Gauss mech, an SRM boat, an LRM boat, a devastating SDR-6M, and so on. Perhaps not all the time, but I doubt there is anyone here who hasn't tried out at least some of these cheese builds.

[Coolant]

I think the original poster needs to realize that the PPC is still in the game, can still be equipped in the mechlab. PGI didn't get rid of the PPC only nerfed using multiple. They still should be viable, you can't expect them to disappear otherwise why have them in the game? They've been a staple in previous titles. You should see them every match, just like you see ballistics or missiles, or lasers. That is the way I'm seeing games now. It is NOT PPC fest, it is a PPC mixed with other weapons as it should be. If you are seeing PPC boats, then either we're in a different ELO or you play maybe only 8 mans of which I know nothing about.

[DaZur]

El Bandito, on 24 July 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

What you said makes sense and I agree with further making PPCs and Gauss to be specialized in long range only through cooldowns and heat--in fact something similar in my Feature Suggestion thread. However, lets just not pretend the proposed change is nothing but a straight up nerf--since there is only the negative. Of course this proposed nerf simply "balances" PPCs and Gauss using minor nerf, while SSRM2 nerf of the 16th basically made the weapon useless to pick.

Really... you're going to beat me up due to semantics?!

By my nerdy definition, to nerf (hard nerf to be specific) implies mitigating it's viability or making something less-than it originally was intended to be. A soft nerf is granular changes to mechanics to achieve a favorable outcome without changing it's lethality nor its viability.

[Sable]

Mystere, on 24 July 2013 - 11:17 AM, said:

I am not saying that PPCs remain as they are. What I am saying is change anything (heat, cool down, damage, etc.) except their speed. Why? I find highly-charged particles traveling slower than ballistic projectiles very silly. it breaks immersion, at least for me.

two things i want to make clear.

1 -both heat and cooldown for PPCs have been changed, first lowered then raised. Why should they not consider adjusting the third factor?
2- I never said they should move slower than every single projectile. Right now the only thing that can compete with them are the AC/2s at 2000 with the Gauss rifle in a far second place at 1200. Its funny how the Gauss rifle being the only real high damage sniper ballistic is STILL slower than a PPC when the PPC has 3/4ths the max range but its speed is still 2000. At the very least it would be fair to reduced the speed to be in line with the gauss rifle since running a gauss/ppc setup is THE preferred sniper build. Personally i think it would good at the same speed as the AC/20 which is 900

Coolant, on 24 July 2013 - 11:52 AM, said:

I think the original poster needs to realize that the PPC is still in the game, can still be equipped in the mechlab. PGI didn't get rid of the PPC only nerfed using multiple. They still should be viable, you can't expect them to disappear otherwise why have them in the game? They've been a staple in previous titles. You should see them every match, just like you see ballistics or missiles, or lasers. That is the way I'm seeing games now. It is NOT PPC fest, it is a PPC mixed with other weapons as it should be. If you are seeing PPC boats, then either we're in a different ELO or you play maybe only 8 mans of which I know nothing about.

I'm not expecting them to disappear or to be removed from the game. My hope is that they will not be the ONLY weapon that should be used in EVERY circumstance on EVERY mech for EVERY variant. I mean if we really want to do the most damage everyone would want to use gauss or ac/20s but they have their own drawbacks such as their weight, ammo capacity, surviability, and (now back to the original thought of this thread) projectile speed.

Its called a Particle Projector Cannon not a Particle Beam Cannon. The name itself implies it needs to be projected no beamed instantly to its target.

Edited by Sable, 24 July 2013 - 02:03 PM.