37 replies to this topic

[Tombstoner]

This is the origin of the word flak - https://en.wikipedia...lak_18/36/37/41
the 88 used a single round that burst at a predetermined altitude..... flak has nothing to do with LBX function as a flak gun
the LBX is a shot gun you get multiple ball rounds per shell or single slugs just like a shot gun.

Round speed need to be much faster with a tighter group not so tight that it will hit one section at 1300 meters.
I think LBX should get bonus damage to internals. that would make 1-2 pellets that hit an open section worthy of respect, thus making the lbx viable at longer ranges and deadly at short range.

[Roland]

Belorion, on 25 July 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

Crits knock out weapons, and cause ammo to blow up.

You know what does that even better?
Destroying the section containing them.

So, sorry. When I said, "Crits do nothing" what I meant was "crits do nothing useful compared to simply destroying the section".

[Wildgrin]

I am not a major AC user in general, but I would be interested to see how it works with the LB-10x getting a projectile speed boost. That said if they ever did put in slugs for the LB-10x I would say they should take a speed penalty so as not to out class the regular ac 10 when using slugs. I would also make the slug proportionally slower than the ac-10 round as the shot is faster.

i.e. if the shot is 25% faster than a regular ac-10 round the slug is 25% slower.

canister/shot/flak = higher projectile speed which better gives a higher chance to hit but still spread damage

slug/solid shot = lower projectile speed than regular AC speed means more effort/higher chance to miss to get more concentrated damage.

In really close with both types of ammo this may still out-class an AC-10 but It could work with the LB-10x only having the shot and the AC-10 having the single projectile. And perhaps by the time they add slugs they could add ammo with different effects to the AC-10 that the LB-10x can't use. I believe there is lore to support that anyway, could be wrong about the multiple ac ammo types.

[Joseph Mallan]

General Taskeen, on 25 July 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

No.

Its a Autocannon flak gun. Accept that. Both cluster and slugs have the same range. Accept that. The LB-X is not comparable to a hand-held shot gun. Accept that.

K?

Giving slug to LB-X is not a solution, as it simply supercedes an AC/10 in that case. I don't think you thought this out thouroughly by examining and testing previous LB-X guns in other Mech Warrior games.

So the solution needs a versatile and aggressive balance approach by the following:

- LB-X cluster type munitions needs to have the damage per pellet increased (Anywhere from 1.2 to 1.5 for testing) PLUS spread reduced to a point where all cluster pellets are hitting a target for its "effective range" (this would still have the affect of spreading out the pellets, and not pin-point except at close range)

But wait? Doesn't this make an LB-X gun more powerful than a regular AC? Yes, it does, and the balance solution is simple.

- Logically if the LB-X cluster round is doing more potential damage, then this equates to longer cool downs. AC's = Fast DPS, LB-X = Slow Fire, High Burst at Close/Long Range

- By examining other Mech Warrior we can see where better balance was achieved by making the LB-X calibers effective and competitive.

LB-X Cannon

Quote

The most notable feature of the weapon was its ability to fire both standard HEAP rounds and a specialized anti-'Mech cluster round.

You were saying? it fired Cluster and an slugs before it was Nerfed by MechWarrior games.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 July 2013 - 01:58 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

General Taskeen, on 25 July 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

No.

Its a Autocannon flak gun. Accept that. Both cluster and slugs have the same range. Accept that. The LB-X is not comparable to a hand-held shot gun. Accept that.

K?

Giving slug to LB-X is not a solution, as it simply supercedes an AC/10 in that case. I don't think you thought this out thouroughly by examining and testing previous LB-X guns in other Mech Warrior games.

So the solution needs a versatile and aggressive balance approach by the following:

- LB-X cluster type munitions needs to have the damage per pellet increased (Anywhere from 1.2 to 1.5 for testing) PLUS spread reduced to a point where all cluster pellets are hitting a target for its "effective range" (this would still have the affect of spreading out the pellets, and not pin-point except at close range)

But wait? Doesn't this make an LB-X gun more powerful than a regular AC? Yes, it does, and the balance solution is simple.

- Logically if the LB-X cluster round is doing more potential damage, then this equates to longer cool downs. AC's = Fast DPS, LB-X = Slow Fire, High Burst at Close/Long Range

- By examining other Mech Warrior we can see where better balance was achieved by making the LB-X calibers effective and competitive.

The LB-10X is a weapon that is SUPPOSE to have selectable munitions. You are suppose to be able to switch between cluster and standard shells at will and it is suppose to have been an improvement over the AC/10, obsoleting it in fact. This is based on table top rule and lore.

From Sarna's:

The LB 10-X Autocannon is essentially a 'Mech-mounted shotgun, capable of firing special "cluster rounds" that split apart after being fired, allowing the weapon to either spread damage out or focus damage on a small area, depending on the range. LB-X Autocannons are able to use either the special cluster rounds or standard autocannon rounds.

Read a couple of the sentences in the description carefully.

Capable of firing special "cluster rounds" that split apart after being fired - implied that the munitions spread at some point after being fired, not right out of the muzzle.

allowing the weapon to EITHER spread damage out or FOCUS damage on a small area depending on range - In game weapons doesn't do so hot at doing Focus damage at any range.

LB-X Autocannons are able to use either the special cluster rounds or standard autocannon rounds. - This one is key. You should be able to switch between the types of rounds you use.

My personal solution for balance is to make the ammo selectable. If you fire it in cluster, things stay the same as they are now except you get 1.5 damage per pellet. If you select slug mode, you get the same range as an AC/10 but only 7 damage per shell. Also make it a 1 second cooldown for switching between ammo types.

[Pinselborste]

give the weapon two firemodes, toogled like the ecm.

first mode has the 10 pellets spread around, at 1.2 - 1.5 damage, whatever turns out to be balanced.

second mode fires 5 pellets one after another in about 0.5 seconds without spread.

Edited by Pinselborste, 25 July 2013 - 01:47 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

I think I have encountered a situation where the crit-seeking capability of the LBX benefited anyone a grand total of zero times.

It should do more damage. It did more damage in MW4, it was (IIRC) a good weapon in MW4. Precision matters in Mechwarrior games and guns that don't do precision need extra punch to counteract that.

Edited by Royalewithcheese, 25 July 2013 - 03:31 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Would 5 point solid and 5 points scatter be viable?

[Josef Nader]

It doesn't need a damage buff, it needs a slug round like it's supposed to.

It's a lighter, more compact AC/10. It's literally a more advanced version of the same gun. This is balanced in tabletop by the AC/10 getting lots of fun alternate munitions that the LB-10X can't use (and the AC/10 being cheaper to field).

Once we have slugs and canister shots, like we're supposed to, the LB-10X is going to kick ***.

[Royalewithcheese]

Josef Nader, on 25 July 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

It doesn't need a damage buff, it needs a slug round like it's supposed to.

It's a lighter, more compact AC/10. It's literally a more advanced version of the same gun. This is balanced in tabletop by the AC/10 getting lots of fun alternate munitions that the LB-10X can't use (and the AC/10 being cheaper to field).

Once we have slugs and canister shots, like we're supposed to, the LB-10X is going to kick ***.

Do any top-tier builds actually run the AC/10? I guess I'm not clear on what a slightly better version of it would do.

[Joseph Mallan]

Royalewithcheese, on 25 July 2013 - 03:57 PM, said:

Do any top-tier builds actually run the AC/10? I guess I'm not clear on what a slightly better version of it would do.

[SixBottles]

i dont get it...

Belorion, on 25 July 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

I think one of the ammo types that the LBX is supposed to be able to fire is normal AC ammo. That would go a long way toward balancing it.

Josef Nader, on 25 July 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

It doesn't need a damage buff, it needs a slug round like it's supposed to.

an lbx using a slug round would be excactly the same as an AC10. how the hell does that balance the LBX

its like saying the pulse laser needs a buff. make it deal only 9 damage and prolong the beam to 1sec while upping the range and lowering the heat...

MeiSooHaityu, on 25 July 2013 - 09:57 AM, said:

The tricky thing about making the LBX put out more damage to make up for the fragmenting effect is that it outputs more damage than a Standard A/C10 and is a heck of a light lighter to boot. That doesn't seem to make a lot of sense to me.

ehm sorry, but last time i checked the LBX is a stunning and overwhelming ONE TON lighter than an AC10

and why shouldnt it do more damage than an AC10? because it has a 10 in its name?
thats stupid. it would do more damage close up and less on range... that is "balance" in its purest form
(i remind u guys... more damage in general... u will still hit multiple locations except at hugging ranges <50m)

Edited by SixBottles, 25 July 2013 - 04:07 PM.

[SweetWarmIce]

The LBX-10 needs each pellet to do more damage to compensate for spread and travel time. Same principle as SRMs.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

I am fine keeping LB 10-X AC as a short range weapon right now, so I would keep the damage as-is, and reduce the cooldown on the LB 10-X AC so that it can shoot slightly faster with a slightly higher DPS than an AC/10. So based on actual performance of the weapon it should still be close to 4 DPS because not all pellets register.

The last time I checked my weapon stats I only did 7.5 damage per shot with the LB 10-X AC, so if the cooldown was set to 2.00 the DPS would at least be 3.75 DPS, not 3 DPS with the current 2.5 cooldown.

And since the weapon is pretty cool, the HPS will go up slightly, but should still be very manageable.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

General Taskeen, on 25 July 2013 - 07:29 AM, said:

No.

Its a Autocannon flak gun. Accept that. Both cluster and slugs have the same range. Accept that. The LB-X is not comparable to a hand-held shot gun. Accept that.

K?

Giving slug to LB-X is not a solution, as it simply supercedes an AC/10 in that case. I don't think you thought this out thouroughly by examining and testing previous LB-X guns in other Mech Warrior games.

So the solution needs a versatile and aggressive balance approach by the following:

- LB-X cluster type munitions needs to have the damage per pellet increased (Anywhere from 1.2 to 1.5 for testing) PLUS spread reduced to a point where all cluster pellets are hitting a target for its "effective range" (this would still have the affect of spreading out the pellets, and not pin-point except at close range)

But wait? Doesn't this make an LB-X gun more powerful than a regular AC? Yes, it does, and the balance solution is simple.

- Logically if the LB-X cluster round is doing more potential damage, then this equates to longer cool downs. AC's = Fast DPS, LB-X = Slow Fire, High Burst at Close/Long Range

- By examining other Mech Warrior we can see where better balance was achieved by making the LB-X calibers effective and competitive.

Essentially this.


PGI needs to rework the weapon entirely over to make it so its canister round detonated mid-flight causing a constant spread on the target regardless of range.


EDIT: For those many of you who are challenged, it is VERY easy to make the slug rounds not definitively better than a standard AC10. More ballistic drop + a much slower velocity (say 950 as opposed to an AC10's 1100). Also, reduce its max effective range with this ammunition typing from 540 to sat 400. Even further, reduce the rate of fire. All those small things would make it a fair trade off between an AC10 and an LBX10 slug.

Edited by mwhighlander, 25 July 2013 - 08:34 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Belorion, on 25 July 2013 - 10:15 AM, said:

I think one of the ammo types that the LBX is supposed to be able to fire is normal AC ammo. That would go a long way toward balancing it.



Crits knock out weapons, and cause ammo to blow up.

After you already removed 2/3 of a sections total hit points - the armour. And ammo explodes (according to the last dev post on the topic) only with a 10 % chance.

The effect is marginal. It exists, but it's hardly sufficient to be worth building a mech around (and if you install an LBX-10, that's basically what you do). And I also think it shouldn't be more important, not as long as critical hits are ruled completely by randomness and there aren't many player decisions involved.

Aside from that, LBX also have the problem that they deal damage in 1 point packages that crit individually and roll the affected item individually. That means after 10 LBX-10 crits is not very likely to destroy anything but a Gauss or ECM, while an AC/10 crit will instantly destroy any item except the AC/20. And this includes considering that LBX-10 have crit-buffs.

So even if critical hits were important, due to the mechanics, the LBX-10 is not really better at it then the AC/10.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 26 July 2013 - 12:56 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Zyllos, on 25 July 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

"Flak" is not regulated to AA only. Flak just means submunitions.

Actually, that's completely backwards.

Flak comes from the German phrase "Fliegerabwehrkanonen", "anti-aircraft cannon" (literally Fl(ieger)a(bwehr)k(anone): Flieger ("aircraft" (literally, "flyer")) + Abwehr ("defense") + Kanone ("gun")).

Strictly speaking, "flak" is a role rather than any particular weapon (or class of weapons) or munition (or class of munitions).
Non-fragmenting munitions are as much "flak" when used for the anti-aircraft role as fragmenting munitions used in the same role. Likewise, a fragmenting munition when used in a role other than anti-aircraft operations (such as the M1 Abrams using the M1028 canister round) is not "flak".

[Strum Wealh]

Zyllos, on 25 July 2013 - 09:14 AM, said:

This is actually incorrect, also.

It's suppose to shoot a flak canister which explodes close to a target.

And this is a very simple way of doing it. Take the range finder code, which is next to your redicule, and calculate it on each update of the server. If it reads <=50m, explode, releasing the flak shot.

This will allow the LBX to utilize the full optimal range without making it better than the AC/10 at close range. It also allows PGI to balance the weapon by controlling the size of the average spray by increasing/decreasing the distance at which it explodes.

This will make it act exactly how it is suppose to be in canon.

Sarna saying "mech-mounted shotgun" is a misnomer. They say that because it's easier to the average reader than saying a "mech-mounted flak cannon" as not many immediately know what a flak cannon is.

Actually, the OP (and the Devs, as it happens) got it right the first tome - the LB-X cluster round is canonically supposed to be modeled on shotshell-like behavior.

The actual wording, directly from the CBT Master Rules (pg. 132) is as follows:
"The LB-X autocannon can fire cluster munitions, which act like an anti-BattleMech shotgun in combat. When fired, the ammunition fragments into several smaller submunitions. This improves the attacker’s chances of striking a critical location but disperses total damage by spreading hits over the target area rather than concentrating the damage on one location. Cluster munitions can be used only in LB-X autocannon, not in standard or Ultra autocannon types."

Also, from TechManual (pg. 207):
"An improvement on the common autocannon intended to expand the weapon’s role into anti-vehicle and anti-infantry work, the LB-X makes use of light, heat-dissipating alloys to reduce its weight and thermal buildup. These materials, coupled with a smooth-bore, multi-munition feed mechanism, make the LB more expensive than standard autocannons. However, the slight range increase and the ability to switch between standard-style bursts and explosive cluster munitions - both specially developed for this weapon system - more than mitigate this higher cost."

Note that the CBTMR description specifically says, "When fired, the ammunition fragments into several smaller submunitions."
This mirrors the behavior of actual real-world canister rounds of the same caliber ranges as BT ACs, like the M1028 canister round used by the Abrams MBT that (to quote said round's manufacturer, General Dynamics) "discharges [a] massive blast of fragments at muzzle exit" (e.g. "when fired").
This is also the same behavior employed by shotguns' shotshells - which is why the shotgun comparison is made with consistency.

In addition, TRO 2750 (in which the LB-X was introduced) again uses the shotgun comparison (on pg. 08).
"In addition to firing the standard Dual-Purpose Armor-Defeating Rounds, the weapon may also fire a special Cluster Round that acts much like an anti-'Mech shotgun. After being fired, the round breaks up into several smaller submunitions."
Again, use of the phrase "after being fired" rather than something to the effect of "prior to impact" indicates that the fragmentation/break-up phase happens early in the firing cycle (e.g. "at muzzle exit").

By contrast, the technically-improprtly-named "flak round" (described on pg. 352 of Tactical Operations) that is fired by Standard ACs - and not the LB-X family - is what behaves as you describe.
"Despite having been a proven technology in ages past, flak autocannon ammunition remains uncommon today. Intended to deal with airborne combatants such as VTOLs and fighters, this ammunition uses proximity charges to detonate in mid-air. While potent against fast-moving targets susceptible to foreign object damage (FOD), flak ammo is less effective against slower-moving targets on the ground because the charges scatter their shrapnel too far and too quickly to benefit from the target’s mobility."

Further compounding the issue is the flechette rounds, also available to Standard ACs.
From CBTMR, pg. 133:
"Flechette rounds are similar to LB-X cluster rounds, except they release a shower of metal slivers instead of shotgun-like flak. Designed to combat unarmored infantry, these rounds are ineffective against armored targets."
And from TechManual, pg. 208:
"Developed by the FedSuns in 3055 for standard ACs, flechette munitions deliver a shotgun-like blast of metal shards rather than a stream of shells. Intended for use against infantry, flechette rounds can wipe out entire platoons of conventional troops in seconds and can even ravage battle-armored squads, but this ammo type loses effectiveness against armored targets such as vehicles and ‘Mechs."

To reiterate (and summarize):
LB-X cluster rounds = canister-round/shotshell (fragments at muzzle exit) with explosive submunitions
Standard AC flechette rounds = canister-round/shotshell (fragments at muzzle exit) with non-explosive shrapnel
Standard AC flak rounds = proximity-detonated shrapnel shell or HE shell with non-explosive shrapnel