740 replies to this topic

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Currently the game is uninstalled on my system.

The so called aggressive balance changes touted by Paul were nothing, and the ghost heat is a complete farce and totally counter-intuitive for new players.
The forums are mocked for being a small fraction of the player base, not the core demographic they are looking at.

So do tell, how the silent non forum going majority are ever going to understand these mechanics?

The game may have 1 million registered accounts, many are smurf/duo accounts and many more no longer play the game, it's a smoke a mirrors statement because the actual active playerbase is less than 10% of that.

Flat out i am 100% convinced the core issue with MWO is Paul Innoye and until he is removed and someone who actually plays and understands the mechanics of the game and the people who play to win using the best toys in the best manner and balance from that perspective downwards....then this game is dead in the water.

I personally, and i know of many others will be spending money elsewhere.
And when hundreds/thousands of customers are doing that, well then that is a clear alarm bell warning.

Luckily Final Fantasy 14 ARR is right around the corner this month.

Edited by DV McKenna, 31 July 2013 - 11:31 AM.

[keith]

Sybreed, on 31 July 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

I don't like the system as much as anyone else as I think it's too convoluted and arbitrary, but I'll be honest here, I heard there were a lot more varied builds in-game and I appreciate that. If only PGI got the same result using a system that made more sense...

In other words, the system isn't very well thought out, but if it makes for a more fun game (for me at least), I can endure it...

i think thats mainly because of all the ppl who could abuse and understand the system have left the game. example my unit plays only on patch days to see what changes. we went ow that .5 sec delay anit so bad, too bad alphas still rule the day and theres no brawling.

[Sybreed]

keith, on 31 July 2013 - 11:31 AM, said:

i think thats mainly because of all the ppl who could abuse and understand the system have left the game. example my unit plays only on patch days to see what changes. we went ow that .5 sec delay anit so bad, too bad alphas still rule the day and theres no brawling.

that's a problem if big alphas are still dominating

[Gwaihir]

They always will until weapons are actually balanced. "Ghost heat" does nothing to actually balance weapons at all, it's a poor excuse of a bandaid over a misunderstood problem.

Also, Good Post DV McKenna.

[Smoke Dancer]

Having listened to the recording and read the thread it is clear to me that this Town hall is made up of a diverse group of people who love the MWO project and want it to be a success.

As customers we have been falling over ourselves trying to tell PGI what we want but the community has never really been able to agree a constructive mechanism for doing so. As a result some of the highly thought out and constructive comments have not had their impact because they've been camouflaged by the whining post and the 'no it's okay, it isn't broken' type posts.

I hope everyone who reads this thread and the town hall meetings as a mechanism where we as a community can come together and spend some time debating things such as weapon balance in a productive manner so that we, the community, can put forward balanced solutions to the problems we see instead of simply saying childish things such as 'this game is broken' or 'missiles are crap, fix them'.

In that sense I would appeal to people who want to be proactive to get involved and make yourself and your ideas known. If you simply wish to troll then go troll else where - trolling is easy, thinking is hard.

This should be viewed as being about community driven development - nothing more, nothing less. I just hope that the developers see this and that the community remembers this going forward or else all this effort will be for naught.

[Stormwolf]

I sometimes really wish that there was some type of test server that allowed people to change stats on various weapons. Just give 10 different groups of players the same homework to create a balanced a system and see what they come with. Later you should compare the results against each other.

It would create new and refreshing ideas the devs hadn't even considered.
I know from personal experience that being stuck with long running problems will often blind you to alternatives. Getting someone else onboard for input will often help.

Edited by Stormwolf, 31 July 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[Smoke Dancer]

Stormwolf, on 31 July 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

I sometimes really wish that there was some type of test server that allowed people to change stats on various weapons. Just give 10 different groups of players the same homework to create a balanced a system and see what they come with. Later you should compare the results against each other.

It would create new and refreshing ideas the devs hadn't even considered.
I know from personal experience that being stuck with long running problems will often blind you to alternatives. Getting someone else onboard for input will often help.

Indeed and that is exactly why the town hall and all that comes of it is so important. Getting together different people from different backgrounds with different play styles will do exactly that.

Edited by Smoke Dancer, 31 July 2013 - 11:55 AM.

[keith]

Stormwolf, on 31 July 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

I sometimes really wish that there was some type of test server that allowed people to change stats on various weapons. Just give 10 different groups of players the same homework to create a balanced a system and see what they come with. Later you should compare the results against each other.

It would create new and refreshing ideas the devs hadn't even considered.
I know from personal experience that being stuck with long running problems will often blind you to alternatives. Getting someone else onboard for input will often help.

u mean like that test server thats 12v12 been going on? that i assume they could change the wep values on and say how does this feel. run it around twice a week, with different numbers on. and each time tweek a different wep till it feels right then move on. instead of ever 2 week patches and ppl going huh, y did we not get ppc heat up by 1 this week.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

keith, on 31 July 2013 - 12:08 PM, said:

u mean like that test server thats 12v12 been going on? that i assume they could change the wep values on and say how does this feel. run it around twice a week, with different numbers on. and each time tweek a different wep till it feels right then move on. instead of ever 2 week patches and ppl going huh, y did we not get ppc heat up by 1 this week.

You mean that test server that should be used...to test?

[Ken Fury]

DV McKenna, on 31 July 2013 - 11:25 AM, said:

The game may have 1 million registered accounts, many are smurf/duo accounts and many more no longer play the game,

Well I do have 5 or more accounts (forgot exact numbers).

I don't play any of them at the moment. And the extra accounts were just setup to test the newbie experience. I'm pretty sure WoL is responsible for at least some dummy accounts.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Tank Boy Ken, on 31 July 2013 - 12:16 PM, said:

Well I do have 5 or more accounts (forgot exact numbers).

I don't play any of them at the moment. And the extra accounts were just setup to test the newbie experience. I'm pretty sure WoL is responsible for at least some dummy accounts.

Your not the only one, i know people who own domains, and just created throw away email addresses to get into closed beta.
Some created 10 or more accounts.

[Gwaihir]

DV McKenna, on 31 July 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

You mean that test server that should be used...to test?

That would be pretty amazing!

[Chronojam]

It's clear that so many people "get it" and are on the same page now, I find myself running out of likes all too often these days and that's the happiest problem we have around here. Look at all these good posts.

[John Norad]

Nekki Basara, on 31 July 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

Have you read any of the posts which explain why competitive players are the exact people you want to go to for feedback? Because it doesn't look like you have.

No, it's competent people you want to go to, not competetive. Competent people can be found in both camps, competitive and casual.
Sometimes it overlaps, sometimes it doesn't. Some folks just like to throw around numbers and theorize, but their playstyle is casual, because they either don't like the competetive approach, or they lack the time they think would be necessary, or there's some other reason that keeps them from going 'pro'.

Every piece of thought-out and well presented feedback should be considered. Whether the player is a forum warrior or belongs to some big player group should be absolutely secondary, if not completely irrelevant.
Otherwise you act biased, and tbh bias is what brought the game here.

[jozkhan]

I've organised game focus testing in the past and ideally what you want is a broad mix of representation including the competitive 'pro' end of the spectrum and the organised groups and clans but equally you need someone fronting for new / beginner level players (which you can refresh) and also PUGs. Hardcore and Casual and just as important from ALL age groups. Sometimes the youngest players have some amazing insights.

In combination this forms your feedback 'council' or panel to consult - which you do so regularly.

It's also a really good idea to have someone from your own QA on this panel (as well as someone from any external QA outfit you might be using) - these people are gold dust.

[Nekki Basara]

NOPE. You don't test a system by throwing it out there and letting the average user see how it works, you test it to destruction. To do that you give it to the cheesiest, most underhanded, devious, win-at-all-cost shitlord you can find and see what they do to it. If you don't like it, then ask them how to fix it. There will always be someone who will break the game, so you may as well get them to fix the major stuff rather than burn down the whole thing.

ETA: obviously this is for balance purposes. For "new player experience" and all the softer parts of the game you get a broad userbase sampling, but for the hard crunch of it you need the worst poopsockers you can find.

Edited by Nekki Basara, 31 July 2013 - 01:50 PM.

[Gwaihir]

Just because someone is very skilled at a game, does not mean they're equally good at generating quality insightful feedback. It's also true that they can also have their own biases towards one play style (Say, sniping only, or brawling only) which will tilt their opinion on other styles. Actual feedback on all parts of the game also need to come from all corners, because, really, what does a power gaming nerd like myself that only plays in groups know about a pure solo newbie experience? Close to squat. I can talk about the intricacies of 8 man tactics, map balance, weapon effectiveness, and mech viability until the end of days, but I'm never really going to know what the other elo bands look like, or how things work playing solo only, or any number of other things that I just don't spend any time doing.

That's why the townhall wanted as wide a reach as possible, because the overall perspective on the game from all points is more important than the narrow picture about balance. Hence why "New player experience" was so prominent in that word cloud we made out of the notes and chatlog (linked in this article, I'm too lazy to rehost it on imgur http://themittani.co...wn-hall-meeting )

I think what we're talking about as far as competitive players and feedback, however, is really just balance stuff. The sort of stuff about, say, 6 PPC stalkers or 6 SRM6 cat-A1s. These very forums *howled* to no end about those builds. In reality, on a team they were a very narrowly focused tool that could be very effective, but could also be hilariously easily countered, once scouted. That's how a balanced game works.

The only reason people in other games come back to the competitive scene, is that they're the ones that actually play at a level, long enough, and in a coordinated enough fashion, to really know what does and does not work, and what is and isn't possible.

Plenty of people can spreadsheet out numbers that may look balanced, but in the end you really needs just loads of testing to get it down pat. Swap out the word testing for practicing, and you have what competitive teams already do: Play the game at a high level, know the systems inside and out, and know what can be made to work, because they're trying it themselves.

On the developer/designer side, you also absolutely need someone(or ones) with high end game skills themselves, basically, to cull out teams trying to slip biased ******** through. Their job is to weight feedback, and make sure that they actually maintain a real even balance. In MWO's case this would be between sniping and brawling, and I think. The goal should not be to eliminate any option, in the end. It should be to balance them out with the other options.

Edited by Gwaihir, 31 July 2013 - 02:10 PM.

[jozkhan]

Nekki Basara, on 31 July 2013 - 01:48 PM, said:

NOPE. You don't test a system by throwing it out there and letting the average user see how it works, you test it to destruction. To do that you give it to the cheesiest, most underhanded, devious, win-at-all-cost shitlord you can find and see what they do to it. If you don't like it, then ask them how to fix it. There will always be someone who will break the game, so you may as well get them to fix the major stuff rather than burn down the whole thing.

ETA: obviously this is for balance purposes. For "new player experience" and all the softer parts of the game you get a broad userbase sampling, but for the hard crunch of it you need the worst poopsockers you can find.

yeah thats QA testing you're talking about (the fun bit)

To be honest this whole year long plus 'BETA' phase has been squandered so badly, it should have been set up from the outset to be a test environment with channels for feedback built into the process - which were all readily identifiable during the closed Beta phase.

Was it Russ or Bryan who used the term 'beta fatigue'? - it was used to describe the player base when they didnt like what they were hearing. Just look at the constructive feedback still pouring out of the playerbase, sadly it was never us who had this so called 'beta fatigue'

[keith]

Gwaihir, on 31 July 2013 - 01:50 PM, said:

I think what we're talking about as far as competitive players and feedback, however, is really just balance stuff. The sort of stuff about, say, 6 PPC stalkers or 6 SRM6 cat-A1s. These very forums *howled* to no end about those builds. In reality, on a team they were a very narrowly focused tool that could be very effective, but could also be hilariously easily countered, once scouted. That's how a balanced game works.

stuff like that was always deadly, but no plan survives contact with the enemy. i forgot what general said that... u can plan ever move before hand, think u have the best mechs. hell u can take 3 splats get in the best brawling range. then BAM 2 hud shots on them mechs. u are down 1/4 of your mechs and probley 1/3 of your firepower. its things like that the ghost heat and other random bandaids can't fix. skill of playing the game and **** just happens. sometimes u win sometimes u lose.

[TheMagician]

Despite any and all issues, its still the best game that I've played in about 8 years.

MW4 had far more issues than this game had with netcode, balance, and addressing hacks. Only real difference was that MW4 also had MekTek, and later NBT, who further screwed up balance, but was able to at least address hacks for the most part.

I can name a bunch of recent games I've played where the devs had far less interaction with the community, took forever to support their game once released, and put out little initial content only to charge you for all additional content.

So yes, this game has plenty of issues. But I thank PGI every day for taking the risk and engaging in the effort to put out a MechWarrior game.

Edited by TheMagician, 31 July 2013 - 02:29 PM.