740 replies to this topic

[jozkhan]

I wouldnt worry too much about 'launch' - most concerned players are in for the long game and we know alot of the really needed changes take time (after the case is made for them and devs are onboard - and making the case will take time I'm sure)

I just want to add that there were alot of really valid and useful suggestions for the New Player Experience and really think theres some mileage here as even IGP / PGI know this is an area that needs some serious love and attention. It's also like starting at the beginning and could help with foundation work.

[Stormwolf]

GaussDragon, on 26 July 2013 - 01:18 PM, said:

This would involve an enormous :effort: post. Rather, it's the merit of the approach I'm debating with you, not the specifics.

Okay, then let's debate.

The Clan mechs are looming on the horizon, I'm particular curious about the Hellbringer Prime. The Hellbringer has A-Pods in its legs. So, should the A-Pods be turned into anti-mech weapons? And what about the B-Pods that get introduced down the line? Should those have a incremental damage increase up from the A-Pods or a simple through the armor crit?

[Chronojam]

Stormwolf, on 26 July 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

Okay, then let's debate.

The Clan mechs are looming on the horizon, I'm particular curious about the Hellbringer Prime. The Hellbringer has A-Pods in its legs. So, should the A-Pods be turned into anti-mech weapons? And what about the B-Pods that get introduced down the line? Should those have a incremental damage increase up from the A-Pods or a simple through the armor crit?

You raise a good point here, and I think it's pretty clear that tabletop equipment should not be translated 1:1 to MechWarrior Online, especially if the equipment does not have a meaningful contribution to gameplay. It's folly to think otherwise. As a sidenote, I am surprised that none of the 20-year battletech veterans have considered suggesting anti-PPC shields which were a thing, which would probably be dumb but actually would translate well into the first-person sim genre.

[Ningyo]

First and most important thing I would like to say is I think this was very well run and everyone involved did a very good job of keeping their cool and being relatively on topic.

I would suggest trying to do something likely this weekly as possible to go in more detail over certain major issues like:
---How to improve new player experience
---Improving and adding Modes and Matchmaking options (like lobbies / stockmech mode)
---How to deal with pinpoint alpha
---An actual pass on present weapons using only the basic heat, damage, range, projectile speed, etc figures to properly balance them (maybe get a document with a fairly wide competitive player consensus they could test on the test server) At best this will fix balance at worst it will shut all the competitive players up about how good they can balance the game

I would suggest each time focusing only on a single one of these or similarly major topics in a lot of detail, as this original time this was done a nice broad overview seems to have been given.

____________________________________________________________________________

Gwaihir, on 26 July 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Spoiler

I think, thematically, one of the things that I would most like to see is for mechs to spend far more time in a seriously damaged to crippled state, which a large internals buff would help with.

When a lot of us think about mech combat, we tend to think about limping around with half a machine left, only a couple of weapons, and bashing on each other until finally the last enemy falls. That doesn't really happen now, we generally go from "Everything's good!" to "Red CT/Side torso armor" to "Deep red internals/dead"

e: A larger ratio of internals to armor buff also indirectly helps LBX weapons, MGs, and other crit happy weapons with spread, like SRMs.

Also along these lines, one of the things that I would realllly like to see, which was mentioned by a couple of PGI guys on their friday stream (I can't take credit for this idea, but it's a damned good one), is applying a damage reduction modifier to certain mechs, to compensate for hitboxes. Think like the ones applied to sections with missile doors. All of us know what a hunchback looks like, and absolutely expect it to have an iconic hunch, but that huge SHOOT ME HERE sign is a MASSIVE handicap, compared to something like Centurions. Going through and evaluating mechs based on their hitboxes, and putting varying levels of DR on each section would help out a ton in terms of evening out relative goodness of different mechs. An Awesome might not be so strictly inferior to a stalker in every way if it's huge slab sided left and right torsos got some extra DR on them.

could just raise internal hit point values on those parts (they clearly are larger so there is more internal parts to soak up damage) also this would likely be a simpler to implement and more easily understood system, than adding different damage modifiers to each part.

I also agree with your first point of raising internals across the board to raise time to kill while making more partially dead mechs running around smashing things.

Edited by Ningyo, 26 July 2013 - 01:56 PM.

[FupDup]

Stormwolf, on 26 July 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

Okay, then let's debate.

The Clan mechs are looming on the horizon, I'm particular curious about the Hellbringer Prime. The Hellbringer has A-Pods in its legs. So, should the A-Pods be turned into anti-mech weapons? And what about the B-Pods that get introduced down the line? Should those have a incremental damage increase up from the A-Pods or a simple through the armor crit?

For that one case, the range literally requires facehumping in order to actually hit (15m), so it would still be pretty bad no matter what is done to it. The A-Pod will probably just end up as a placeholder just like the Command Console.

Edited by FupDup, 26 July 2013 - 01:44 PM.

[Insidious Johnson]

Odd, the concise list of points is identical to issues raised by members of KaoS Legion for 10+ months. Well, I'm sure the rest of the community will have much better luck pressing the issues. Remember, continuing to support those who have no respect for your concerns makes you a chump. Now, shut up and buy the Project Phoenix mechs./lolz.

[RG Notch]

Insidious Johnson, on 26 July 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

Odd, the concise list of points is identical to issues raised by members of KaoS Legion for 10+ months. Well, I'm sure the rest of the community will have much better luck pressing the issues. Remember, continuing to support those who have no respect for your concerns makes you a chump. Now, shut up and buy the Project Phoenix mechs./lolz.

You're not supposed to be here, this is an echo chamber for folks to high five and back slap each other over raising the vocal part of vocal minority while ignoring the minority part. This time it really will be different.

[Chronojam]

Insidious Johnson, on 26 July 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

Odd, the concise list of points is identical to issues raised by members of KaoS Legion for 10+ months. Well, I'm sure the rest of the community will have much better luck pressing the issues. Remember, continuing to support those who have no respect for your concerns makes you a chump. Now, shut up and buy the Project Phoenix mechs./lolz.

Let's not pretend these points aren't identical to issues raised by effectively every single MWO community organization over the past several months. The problem is that we were a bit disjointed, and we didn't all know that everybody else felt the same way. We all suspected, but we didn't know, and it's pretty damn clear now to all of us that everybody agrees -- it's official. It's not a goon list, it's not a kong list, it's not a kaos list, it's not an sjr list, it's a community list of gripes. We're not every man an island like Russ tweeted, we're not isolated in our displeasure with the course the game's taking.

By the way, I'd love to share this choice quote from the ask-the-devs responses. I hope you all love the dominant/mandatory high-alpha long-range sniper metagame despite community outcry to the contrary, because:

miSs, on 26 July 2013 - 12:35 PM, said:

Answer from Paul: There are no current plans to change the heat threshold towards TT values. Are we hard set against it? No, just at the moment there’s no need to do this.

Playing with a higher rate of cooling makes a lot more builds become heat neutral. A lot of heat neutral builds results in mid-range damage applied at a constant rate over time. This mechanism would be highly exploited by those with knowledge of building efficient heat neutral Mechs.

[Gwaihir]

Insidious Johnson, on 26 July 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

Odd, the concise list of points is identical to issues raised by members of KaoS Legion for 10+ months. Well, I'm sure the rest of the community will have much better luck pressing the issues. Remember, continuing to support those who have no respect for your concerns makes you a chump. Now, shut up and buy the Project Phoenix mechs./lolz.

Most goons I know of that even bought phoenix at all have gotten a refund at this point, and given these reasons when asked why.

e: Also busy playing non-MWO things while waiting to see if MWO manages to pull up.

Edited by Gwaihir, 26 July 2013 - 03:09 PM.

[Star Captain Brofist]

WOL would be happy to run these events more frequently. That said, PGI needs to open a channel of communication to their player base for this type of feedback (like having community representatives to advise the design team). If we have no way to get them fair actionable information it's a waste of our energy. Our big push right now is to get some type of channel established.

It's also hard for me to relate with TT values and rules in a competitive online game. TT and FPS/Simulation exist in two very different spaces. The more we can deviate from TT rules the more creative PGI can be with balance and features. The result will be a better game for the players. If you want an updated TT experience MW:Tactics is a much better place for those old systems to work.

Edited by Star Captain Brofist, 26 July 2013 - 03:35 PM.

[Stormwolf]

Star Captain Brofist, on 26 July 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

If you want an updated TT experience MW:Tactics is a much better place for those old systems to work.

Tried it, and I didn't like the simultanious turns.

Megamek is far better since it currently features pretty much every unit apart from latest 3145 TRO's. You should try Megamek with all the TacOps and StratOps options enabled.

Now TacOps has some good things I want to see in MWO:
- The ability to shut down gauss to prevent gauss explosions
- Dialing back energy weapon damage to reduce heat (a wise move after you've lost too many heatsinks)
- TacOps ammunition explosions can potentially damage units around them
- Self destruct to take out nearby units

[Ramblin]

I would like to apologize up front for the disjointed writing you are about to read. There is a reason I chose this name and its not because I wander the countryside whistling and enjoying new experiences.

First, let me start by saying that the #SaveMWO town hall meeting was well run and thank you to the folks that sacrificed their time to make it happen. That being said, im not sure exactly what it is that we should hope for from it. I question the thought that writing a letter telling PGI the things you have in there will have ANY effect at all. Those are all things they already know. We know they know and they know we know they know and, we know they know... well you get the picture. I think it is safe to assume these guys arent completely illiterate and have at least an average I.Q. (be nice)

The game needs serious tweeking. The game is NOT ready to go live. There is NOT enough content. The lack of any kind of lobby giving us an opportunity to drop against pre-chosen opponents and/or train our new pilots is a crime. (Should have been one of the first things they developed after they chose the name of the game IMO) So, all that being said. I guess what I want to know is what does everyone think/hope is going to come out of all of us hugging it out and putting our claws away for a few hours to agree on what we all have been agreeing on already? Where is this supposed to go (In a utopian universe)?

I signed the letter because im a sheep (Settle down Mariks, im not "That kind" of sheep) but, I honestly dont understand what I myself expect to come of it. What is our mission and, where are our LOBBIES?!?!?!

[Insidious Johnson]

Chronojam, on 26 July 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

Let's not pretend these points aren't identical to issues raised by effectively every single MWO community organization over the past several months. The problem is that we were a bit disjointed, and we didn't all know that everybody else felt the same way. We all suspected, but we didn't know, and it's pretty damn clear now to all of us that everybody agrees -- it's official. It's not a goon list, it's not a kong list, it's not a kaos list, it's not an sjr list, it's a community list of gripes. We're not every man an island like Russ tweeted, we're not isolated in our displeasure with the course the game's taking.

By the way, I'd love to share this choice quote from the ask-the-devs responses. I hope you all love the dominant/mandatory high-alpha long-range sniper metagame despite community outcry to the contrary, because:

Never said it wasn't anyone else's concern. I will say that KaoS is usually the first and definitely the most frequent to be tied to the community whipping post by folks who refuse recognize the difference between urine and rain. I will give kudos to the Goons for caring more about the community and trying to rectify the situation. What we've gotten for our troubles is not conducive to an encore, even should the game turn a 180. Star Citizen Alpha in 4 months! I've got nothing to show for it there, but I consider the money more wisely spent.

[Hubis]

Stormwolf, on 26 July 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Tried it, and I didn't like the simultanious turns.

Megamek is far better since it currently features pretty much every unit apart from latest 3145 TRO's. You should try Megamek with all the TacOps and StratOps options enabled.

Now TacOps has some good things I want to see in MWO:
- The ability to shut down gauss to prevent gauss explosions
- Dialing back energy weapon damage to reduce heat (a wise move after you've lost too many heatsinks)
- TacOps ammunition explosions can potentially damage units around them
- Self destruct to take out nearby units

Or, more realistically, different ammo types.

[Stalkerr]

So, apparently after my emails with Garth today, he took the initiative and forwarded this on up the chain at PGI. A little earlier than I expected, but such is life. We'll see where it goes from here...

[Gwaihir]

Stormwolf, on 26 July 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Tried it, and I didn't like the simultanious turns.

Megamek is far better since it currently features pretty much every unit apart from latest 3145 TRO's. You should try Megamek with all the TacOps and StratOps options enabled.

Now TacOps has some good things I want to see in MWO:
- The ability to shut down gauss to prevent gauss explosions
- Dialing back energy weapon damage to reduce heat (a wise move after you've lost too many heatsinks)
- TacOps ammunition explosions can potentially damage units around them
- Self destruct to take out nearby units

We actually play a good bit of Megamek, and someone even made this guy, forest colony in TT form: (It works surprisingly well there)


This was pre-boat in the lake, but close enough.

e: More fun with megamek, 20 fleas vs an Emperor, Nightstar, and Templar (aka Jumpjets + LBX20(s)). AoE ammo explosions and catastrophic engine failures enabled, naturally!

Insidious Johnson, on 26 July 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

Star Citizen Alpha in 4 months! I've got nothing to show for it there, but I consider the money more wisely spent.

I have a shiny little card to show for it!

Edited by Gwaihir, 26 July 2013 - 05:27 PM.

[Hubis]

Ramblin, on 26 July 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

I signed the letter because im a sheep (Settle down Mariks, im not "That kind" of sheep) but, I honestly dont understand what I myself expect to come of it. What is our mission and, where are our LOBBIES?!?!?!

This is a fair response, and I think if we are going to be honest with ourselves it's important to consider it.

The key part is remembering that the #SaveMWO summit last night was a starting point, not the whole she-bang. The important thing last night was to let everyone share their own concerns, and see which ones we share -- some turned out to be new ones (I admit, it's been a while since I had to deal with the "New User" experience myself) but a lot of them seemed to be surprisingly unanimous. That sharing has, I think, established us as a real community, with real common interests which we are all more than willing to put ahead of any other silly online rivalries.

From here, we need to work together and hammer out suggestions to fix problems we have with the game. Hopefully, PGI already has solutions for many of these issues in the works -- if they don't, then we can make sure the problems are on their radar, and if they are then we can try and make sure that they know which issues we really think are high priority. We can try and weigh the pros and cons of new systems changes from PGI, and provide honest feedback on them. Essentially, we can be the healthy community and forum for discussion and feedback that PGI has, unfortunately, seemed to alienate. Hopefully we can change that situation eventually, but in the mean time the most we can do is combine our voices so that we can ensure we are heard, even if we're not listened to.

[Chronojam]

Bingo. It's not incoherent noise anymore when we say particular things are broken, it's established consensus among some of the most dedicated fans.

[Sybreed]

one point I wish was discussed is the "uniqueness" factor of the different mechs that we have. Yesterday, I felt like Maus had lot going on inside his head, but didn't dare suggest anything in fear to get some flak from some players.

That is one of the thing that is extremely unpleasant for me about MWO: mechs don't feel unique, they feel soulless. My question in the last ATD was answered by a big "I don't know", but the dev seemed to understand my concern and agreed with it. Won't be until a while we see something to make mechs feel more distinct, but I think it's an important point to discuss.

Edited by Sybreed, 27 July 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[Lazyone]

Little late hearing on this news, but after reading and listening to what was said I have to say it would be hard to not back this up. I feel all points were well made and a few I also feel the same. Also a few that I haven't thought of (like with the mechs health ... would of NEVER thought of that o.o)
Thanks for doing this and bring this in a civil way.
Not bad people as much I hate seeing that squawk >.>