248 replies to this topic

[Amsro]

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

Its not like the PPC needs a fix. The gauss needs one in combination with PPCs. Make PPCs disturb gauss rifles if they are shot within 0.5 sec. (Reason: magnetic disturbances and unstable gauss capacitors) Make the weapon jam and give it a chance to explode that increases the more it is used together.

For counterbuilds: I run a dual ac20 jager since all that longrange mechs appeared. Works quite well if you know the terrain. Its really devestating what a skilled player can do with it.^^ (Pre heat nerf 3-5 kills per match, now well same damage but 2-3 less kills; damn those kill stealers!)

If 2 ER/PPC's on a mech is game breaking then yes ER/PPC's DO need a heat increase.

Infact ER/PPC's were dropped in heat to curb hit detection woes earlier in the year, now its time to revert that change. Why?

Because ER/PPC's.... HIT now.

P.S. The gauss rifle is already a giant paper mache grenade. Gauss is far from OP and requires skill to use it and keep it safe + ammo. ER/PPC's on the other hand need more heat.

[Orzorn]

You dont necessarily need anti-convergence mechanics to discourage high alphas. Having a heat cap of 30 could do that by virtue of slowing down ppc alphas by as much as 3 seconds, and that is at current erppc heat WITH true DHS.

High alphas cant be gotten rid of just by throwing heat penalties on perfectly legitimate weapon combos. You just need a better risk vs reward involve, such as nearly instantly overheating. The bonus of this is that you dont have to throw a penalty on ever damn combo in the game, first its 2 ppc and gauss, next its 2 ppc and ac20, next 2 ppc and ac10....

If you make ppcs alone a hot weapon, then any alpha attempts must also be hot. This CANNOT be built around. Its simple and effective, something that the heat penalty system is lacking in.

[MyszTrap]

what can we do about it? Demand that they change the weapon slot system over to a size based system! Nothing else will fix this. Sure we can nerf guass and ppcs, but youd have to reduce them to near uselessness before people stop using them. The keyword here is pinpoint damage at all ranges, this game has turned into just cramming as many pinpoint damage weapons on whatever variant that has the most top mounted weapon points. Convegence changes wont fix the sniper game we have now. As snipers will still snipe, they'll just learn to work around any chances

[Fooooo]

Orzorn, on 27 July 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

You dont necessarily need anti-convergence mechanics to discourage high alphas. Having a heat cap of 30 could do that by virtue of slowing down ppc alphas by as much as 3 seconds, and that is at current erppc heat WITH true DHS.

High alphas cant be gotten rid of just by throwing heat penalties on perfectly legitimate weapon combos. You just need a better risk vs reward involve, such as nearly instantly overheating. The bonus of this is that you dont have to throw a penalty on ever damn combo in the game, first its 2 ppc and gauss, next its 2 ppc and ac20, next 2 ppc and ac10....

If you make ppcs alone a hot weapon, then any alpha attempts must also be hot. This CANNOT be built around. Its simple and effective, something that the heat penalty system is lacking in.

Paul somewhat answered this question in the ATD recently.

If they dropped the threshold would make a lot of builds even on heat, meaning they can alpha all day long and never overheat.........fairly poor mechanic imo.

Why even have heat if its never going to matter unless you alpha 3+ ppcs ?

[KKRonkka]

Quote

Clan pulse lasers are also *double* the range of inner sphere ones, and do more damage. So that weapon will likely open a new problem with pinpoint near instant damage lasers.

My god... pulse weapons as a viable option? If we ever get clan weapons I laugh myself to death if people seriously start to whine about PULSE weapons, which are currently resting at the Bottom of any player's weapon-of-choice-list.

[Khobai]

Quote

There are so many builds that have far greater alphas with far better heat management.

like what? Ac/20 was nerfed into oblivion. theres not a whole lot else that does 35 damage to a single location... let alone from across the map.

[Orzorn]

Fooooo, on 27 July 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

Paul somewhat answered this question in the ATD recently.

If they dropped the threshold would make a lot of builds even on heat, meaning they can alpha all day long and never overheat.........fairly poor mechanic imo.

Why even have heat if its never going to matter unless you alpha 3+ ppcs ?

No it wouldn't.

You can do the math yourself, but seeing as you're already arguing me, chances are you haven't and won't, so I'll do it for you.

Even with current ERPPC heat values, with TRUE DHS, and a 30 heat cap, taking 2 ERPPC + Gauss would cause 23 heat (11 * 2 + 1). Assume the pilot has 15 DHS, a common number. They sink 3 heat per second. It would take 7.66 seconds to sink that 23 heat, but since you have to wait 4 seconds anyways for the recycle of your weapons, you'd have to wait 3.66 seconds to if you wanted to remain at 0 heat.

If you fired RIGHT at 4 seconds (as soon as you recycle), you'd shut down, as you'd have only removed 12 heat from the 23, dropping you to 11 heat, meaning alphaing would take you to 33 heat. So even STILL you'd have to wait for 1.33 seconds after recycle to fire and take yourself to exactly 30 heat.

I'm not seeing how this heat is "never going to matter". Math proves it will matter.

Keep in mind that 6 MLAS generates more heat (by 1 point) than the 2 ERPPC / Gauss build, but you have the advantage of saving a lot of tonnage and also having finer control over your heat generation (being able to fire off varying amounts of MLAS), whereas the only weapon the 2 ERPPC Gauss user can realistically fire without generating large amounts of heat is their Gauss, which is an easily destroyed weapon that also is ammo reliant.

Edited by Orzorn, 27 July 2013 - 08:16 AM.

[3rdworld]

What are we going to do about people killing other people?

It isn't fair that someone should lose.

[Kobold]

Unfortunately we can't have BV, because math is hard.

[JohnnyWayne]

Amsro, on 27 July 2013 - 07:21 AM, said:

If 2 ER/PPC's on a mech is game breaking then yes ER/PPC's DO need a heat increase.

[..]

P.S. The gauss rifle is already a giant paper mache grenade. Gauss is far from OP and requires skill to use it and keep it safe + ammo. ER/PPC's on the other hand need more heat.

1. They are not.
2. They are not. Ammo? You think gauss ammo explodes? Ok guys pass on this guy has no clue of anything.

If you think convergece is going to fix this, you should also pass on. This is Mechwarrior and you look for a different game.

Khobai, on 27 July 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

like what? Ac/20 was nerfed into oblivion. theres not a whole lot else that does 35 damage to a single location... let alone from across the map.

Oh please if you think ac20 is not viable anymore, then meet me and I'll show ya... Srsly... What people around here think... ... I'm not sure they do...

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 27 July 2013 - 08:27 AM.

[Monlex]

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

1. They are not.
2. They are not. Ammo? You think gauss ammo explodes? Ok guys pass on this guy has no clue of anything.

If you think convergece is going to fix this, you should also pass on. This is Mechwarrior and you look for a different game.

2. Thats one way you can read it, another would make you look less like a cheeky brat.

On the topic, i dont see how a delay of one or two seconds to alpha number two would solve the problems of the pin point alpha at 1600 m. If you can guarantee there is a maximum of two such mechs it would be no problem but if there are four for example its just a sniperfest, a boring one, there are better games for that in my opinion.

[Stoicblitzer]

Khobai, on 27 July 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

like what? Ac/20 was nerfed into oblivion. theres not a whole lot else that does 35 damage to a single location... let alone from across the map.

so many personal solutions for what people think should happen....the post i quoted depicts a problem with the combination that some may not be considering. Even though gauss velocity is 1200m/s and ppc velocity is 2000m/s, they still hit the same spot even @ long ranges of 800+m depending on speed of mech. Velocity may be something that needs to be looked at.

another factor that might help 2ppc+gauss be LESS useful in close range would be changing the cooldown of either weapon so they aren't the same forcing people to aim twice or wait for both weapons to fully cooldown to get pinpoint alpha.

increasing heat may help. fixing srm hit detection and buffing them some more would help even more.

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 27 July 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[JohnnyWayne]

Monlex, on 27 July 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

2. Thats one way you can read it, another would make you look less like a cheeky brat.

Enlighten me grandmaster of wisdom.

You are going to tell me that sniper loadouts require loads of skill? Reasoned by exploding gauss rifles that do 20 damage which is almost nothing anymore in the current game? Not to forget that skilled sniper are hardly into range to shoot them off.

But not seeing how delaying alphas work shows enough. You don't see how the current gameplay has shifted from PPC fest stalkers to more brawling and balanced loadouts.

Just in case you didn't realise yet: PPC and gauss are supposed to be strong weapons. Just some boneheads wish for the old gameplay, when they sucked won't solve the issue of high alphas. PPCs got nerfed already and will get an additional nerf. Now its the gausses turn again.

Edit: Not to forget, cheeky brat? Dude if I read all this nonesnse here I look like this: http://z0r.de/3446 I dont have the time nor the will to beat reason into all of you.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 27 July 2013 - 08:53 AM.

[Monlex]

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

You are going to tell me that sniper loadouts require loads of skill? Reasoned by exploding gauss rifles that do 20 damage which is almost nothing anymore in the current game? .....

Thats two times a no. Anymore questions?

[C12AZyED]

Haha Tolkien, I had never thought about it that way before. So you're saying my deliberate objection to high alpha pin- point meta gaming in the form of running respectable mechs ( such as the venerable 4SP and NOT the HGN 732/STK 3F)with varied weaponry has been actually working against the point of my protest?!

The game goes from awesome to utter ***** dependent on that magical word: variety. When you have a team of mechs using a plethora of different weapon systems vs another its the gameplay is hugely more interesting, intense and unique. PPC snipe meta is boring, cheesey, depressing and completely broken. How can we convince PGI to get people to play Mechwarrior the way its meant to be played? ;D

[JohnnyWayne]

C12AZyED, on 27 July 2013 - 08:53 AM, said:

How can we convince PGI to get people to play Mechwarrior the way its meant to be played? ;D

Standard loadouts? xD

Monlex, on 27 July 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Thats two times a no. Anymore questions?

I've seen enough of you.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Nauht, on 27 July 2013 - 06:49 AM, said:

Dunno what you're complaining about. It's a 35 point alpha max.

There are so many builds that have far greater alphas with far better heat management.

What's next after you've whined this down to the ground? The double GR next on the list? When all weapon combos are nerfed to hell, you gonna stop at the MG?

Just STOP.

Please show us these amazingly better builds with higher pin point alpha's.

[Sybreed]

Khobai, on 27 July 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

Hardpoint sized restrictions wont solve the problem of convergence though. Theyll just make it so if you want to alphastrike you have to use certain mechs like the Awesome which can mount 3+ large energy weapons. So really all that would accomplish is limiting player choice even more... as only certain mechs could alpha... and only those mechs would be chosen.

but would you pick the Awesome all the time because it's the only one that can alpha?

First: Why is it so important to alpha all the time? Is chain firing such a brain crushing task (comment not directed at you but at MWO players in general)

Second: Being able to do high alphas with the Awesome is offset by having a huge profil and easy to hit torsos, unlike the Stalker. So, in a way, it balances itself out.

[Jman5]

Desperate times call for desperate measures. I have a strategy you guys may not like called: The Sacrificial Pawn.

Outside the premade drops, the game does try pretty hard to match by tonnage. If you don't believe me record your next 10 games and compare the weight. Most teams will be less than 50 tons apart.

With that in mind, pick a 60 ton or lower mech, fill it with brawler weapons, and ideally a standard engine (you're going to need it).

When the game starts the strategy is simple: Your sole mission in this game is to take down a 65+ ton sniper mech even if you immediately die afterward. The loss of both your mech and his mech will result in a small net gain for your team.

If you don't give these sniper mechs the chance to snipe all game, I believe it can have a huge impact on the outcome. That guy who might have otherwise racked up 3 or 4 kills and 600+ damage is now lying in the dirt with you. Pawn takes Queen!

Edited by Jman5, 27 July 2013 - 09:11 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Orzorn, on 27 July 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

No it wouldn't.

You can do the math yourself, but seeing as you're already arguing me, chances are you haven't and won't, so I'll do it for you.

Even with current ERPPC heat values, with TRUE DHS, and a 30 heat cap, taking 2 ERPPC + Gauss would cause 23 heat (11 * 2 + 1). Assume the pilot has 15 DHS, a common number. They sink 3 heat per second. It would take 7.66 seconds to sink that 23 heat, but since you have to wait 4 seconds anyways for the recycle of your weapons, you'd have to wait 3.66 seconds to if you wanted to remain at 0 heat.

If you fired RIGHT at 4 seconds (as soon as you recycle), you'd shut down, as you'd have only removed 12 heat from the 23, dropping you to 11 heat, meaning alphaing would take you to 33 heat. So even STILL you'd have to wait for 1.33 seconds after recycle to fire and take yourself to exactly 30 heat.

I'm not seeing how this heat is "never going to matter". Math proves it will matter.

Keep in mind that 6 MLAS generates more heat (by 1 point) than the 2 ERPPC / Gauss build, but you have the advantage of saving a lot of tonnage and also having finer control over your heat generation (being able to fire off varying amounts of MLAS), whereas the only weapon the 2 ERPPC Gauss user can realistically fire without generating large amounts of heat is their Gauss, which is an easily destroyed weapon that also is ammo reliant.

God I wish PGI would figure this out.