248 replies to this topic

[Orzorn]

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

2. They are not. Ammo? You think gauss ammo explodes? Ok guys pass on this guy has no clue of anything.

He's saying it uses ammo.

[d4nY]

JohnnyWayne, on 27 July 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

Its not like the PPC needs a fix. The gauss needs one in combination with PPCs. Make PPCs disturb gauss rifles if they are shot within 0.5 sec. (Reason: magnetic disturbances and unstable gauss capacitors) Make the weapon jam and give it a chance to explode that increases the more it is used together.

i think that's a pretty good and lore friendly way to fix this problem.
Instead of just looking at each weapon, you have to look at the way these weapons work when combined together.
So i think instead of just increasing the heat of a ppc (which fixes just the symptoms, not the cause of the "sickness"), you should add restrictions or penalties when certain weapons are combined.

Edited by d4nY, 27 July 2013 - 09:10 AM.

[JohnnyWayne]

Orzorn, on 27 July 2013 - 09:03 AM, said:

He's saying it uses ammo.

And PPCs use heatsinks. If you build your mech properly you dont have to worry about ammo. Moreover gauss does also more damage and its ammo doesn't explode. I don't even consider it as an argument in my opinion because both weapons are more or less equal on that.

Sybreed, on 27 July 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

First: Why is it so important to alpha all the time? Is chain firing such a brain crushing task (comment not directed at you but at MWO players in general)

Because alpha strikes are superrior. You have to aim once.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 27 July 2013 - 09:14 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

The gauss needs one in combination with PPCs.

No. The problem is neither gauss nor ppcs. its convergence. If they nerf ppcs, people will just go back to dual gauss, but the problem will still be there. Convergence is what has to be fixed. Battletech damage/armor values were not designed for all your weapons to hit one location.

[Monlex]

d4nY, on 27 July 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

i think that's a pretty good and lore friendly way to fix this problem.
Instead of just looking at each weapon, you have to look at the way these weapons work when combined together.
So i think instead of just increasing the heat of a ppc (which fixes just the symptoms, not the cause of the "sickness"), you should add restrictions or penalties when certain weapons are combined.

You would have to implement the same for AC/2, AC/5 and UAC/5, even if you did it would not solve the problem of 3 mechs or more focusing the same mechs ct from 1500m+-
Again im conviced that its the pinpoint accuracy that is the core of the problem, there are a lot of good ideas out there to solve it, i hope one of them or a combination will make its way into this game.

Edited by Monlex, 27 July 2013 - 09:17 AM.

[Stoicblitzer]

two things:
1) convergence will never be "fixed" because a) it's unintuitive to all MW players b ) less noob-friendly and this game doesn't need anymore of that and c) paul basically said to forget about it
2) stop coming up with these "reinvent-the-wheel" solutions like PGI

let's look at the existing properties of the weapons and think about how this combination can be dealt with. do thought experiments and figure out a way. differing velocities, differing cooldowns, etc

STOP SAYING PINPOINT ACCURACY AND CONVERGENCE FFS.

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 27 July 2013 - 09:43 AM.

[Khobai]

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1) convergence will never be "fixed" because a) it's unintuitive to all MW players b ) less noob-friendly and this game doesn't need anymore of that and c) paul basically said to forget about it

a ) its not unintuitive at all, most other fps games have recoil, which is a nearly identical concept.
b ) its not less noob-friendly, because again, most other fps games have recoil, which is a nearly identical concept
c ) paul may have said that, but paul is also struggling to balance the weapons in the game, and keeps balancing in circles, and not fixing convergence is the reason why.

Quote

2) stop coming up with these "reinvent-the-wheel" solutions like PGI

Its not reinventing the wheel at all. Its making MWO more like TT. TT does not have pinpoint alphastrikes, so MWO shouldnt either, specifically because MWO uses damage/armor values derived from TT. If MWO didnt use TT values, that wouldnt be the case, but it does, and as long as it does, pinpoint alphastrikes will not be balanced.

Quote

STOP SAYING PINPOINT ACCURACY AND CONVERGENCE FFS

Why? As long as its the #1 problem with the game im going to continue to point it out. Convergence is responsible for the current alphastrike meta, its responsible for the dominance PPCs/AC20s/Gauss over all other weapons, and its responsible for the death of medium mechs, since theyre neither hard to hit, nor have much armor.

Im sorry if my suggestion nerfs your ERPPC, x2 PPC, Gauss Highlander crutch-mech but thats too bad.

Edited by Khobai, 27 July 2013 - 10:02 AM.

[3rdworld]

Khobai, on 27 July 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

1) its not unintuitive at all, most other fps games have recoil, which is a nearly identical concept.
2) its not less noob-friendly, because again, most other fps games have recoil, which is a nearly identical concept
3) paul may have said that, but paul is also struggling to balance the weapons in the game, and keeps balancing in circles, and not fixing convergence is the reason why.



Its not reinventing the wheel at all. Its making MWO more like battletech which has random hit locations.

Recoil is in no way similar.

Random hit locations represents the pilots skill, which is unneeded.

[Kushko]

I'm not sure if you guys have read this, but you and more importantly the devs definitely should: http://themittani.co...ugly?page=0%2C0

I can see this fixing a large amount of problems mwo is currently facing. Other weapon balances will still be needed (i still think we need more short range focused weapons-lower range and up damage on most of the weapons that should be used for short range brawling) but this would be a huge step in the right direction.

[CG Oglethorpe Kerensky]

Kushko, on 27 July 2013 - 03:26 AM, said:

But what we as players can do is start battling the "oh so loved and overly fitted/abused spec" by building our mechs to specifically counter them.

Tired of the 2xPPC+1xGauss snipefest? Find the style boring and do not wish to participate in the FOT*several*M? Build an "in your face" brawler and use the terrain and team coordination to get close to them safely and unleash your devastating short range fury. Or build a fast mech that will dodge all but the most skilled and precise ppc/gauss fire.

As per Ask a Dev 43 by Paul:

Quote

A lot of heat neutral builds results in mid-range damage applied at a constant rate over time. This mechanism would be highly exploited by those with knowledge of building efficient heat neutral Mechs.

Long-range builds with High Alpha are the way PGI is designing the game and how it is played.

Well-designed mechs that operate at mid-range with consistent DPS are an exploit, please do not play like this.

[Khobai]

Quote

Recoil is in no way similar.

Random hit locations represents the pilots skill, which is unneeded.

Yes it is. Weapons in other FPS games get less accurate the more often you fire them. It is no different.

Random hit locations are needed because MWO uses TT damage/armor values and TT has random hit locations. When you go from random to precise aiming you amplify damage by about 5 times. Even with MWO's double armor, damage is still 2-3 times higher than TT as a result of precise aiming.

Increasing armor is also a possibility, but it makes MWO even less like TT, so IMO that makes it the less favorable option. The goal for MWO is to emulate TT battletech in realtime, so the further you stray from that, the less its going to resemble TT.

Edited by Khobai, 27 July 2013 - 10:20 AM.

[Mystere]

My solution is the same as the one I have for any other "OP" build. I just make my team draw them away from their base ... and then I cap them. Seems to work all the time, and when I say "work", I mean "it really p1sses them off".

[Stoicblitzer]

Khobai, on 27 July 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

[TT garbage]

[recoil garbage]

Im sorry if my suggestion nerfs your ERPPC, x2 PPC, Gauss Highlander crutch-mech but thats too bad.

everybody knows it's pinpoint alphas. what i'm saying is that let's assume it will never be solved because -> PGI. next best way to mitigate the problems is to change existing weapon properties.

nerf my crutch-mech? grow up.

how does recoil fix pinpoint ALPHAS? I fire 2ppcs+gauss together and then i experience some recoil. I wait 4 seconds and aim again. I fire 2ppcs+gauss together and then i experience some recoil. I wait 4 seconds and aim again.I fire 2ppcs+gauss together and then i experience some recoil. I wait 4 seconds and aim again.I fire 2ppcs+gauss together and then i experience some recoil. I wait 4 seconds and aim again.I fire 2ppcs+gauss together and then i experience some recoil. I wait 4 seconds and aim again.I fire 2ppcs+gauss together and then i experience some recoil. I wait 4 seconds and aim again.I fire 2ppcs+gauss together and then i experience some recoil. I wait 4 seconds and aim again.I fire 2ppcs+gauss together and then i experience some recoil. I wait 4 seconds and aim again.I fire 2ppcs+gauss together and then i experience some recoil. I wait 4 seconds and aim again.I fire 2ppcs+gauss together and then i experience some recoil. I wait 4 seconds and aim again.I fire 2ppcs+gauss together and then i experience some recoil. I wait 4 seconds and aim again.I fire 2ppcs+gauss together and then i experience some recoil. I wait 4 seconds and aim again.I fire 2ppcs+gauss together and then i experience some recoil. I wait 4 seconds and aim again.I fire 2ppcs+gauss together and then i experience some recoil. I wait 4 seconds and aim again.

l2p bad.

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 27 July 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[3rdworld]

Khobai, on 27 July 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

Yes it is. Weapons in other FPS games get less accurate the more often you fire them. It is no different.

Random hit locations are needed because MWO uses TT damage/armor values and TT has random hit locations. When you go from random to precise aiming you amplify damage by about 5 times. Even with MWO's double armor, damage is still 2-3 times higher than TT as a result of precise aiming.

ya recoil takes effect after you shoot. It has nothing to do with how accurate your first shot is, or at what range your weapons converge. So no, it is in no way similar to convergence.

Again, the random hit locations represents pilot skill see gunnery skill. This is already in MWO, as bad players hit vital areas less than good pilots. No adjustment is needed.
Thanks for ignoring doubled mech health.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Can we all stop with this "random" stuff?

The word random should never EVER used for anything in this game. Streaks are now useless because of "random".

What this game should have is things that create a "skill" requirement in the game. Right now there is very little skill involved.

The better players are separating themselves by basically three things, coordination, play time and not using bad builds.

There is no real skill involved in aiming and firing a Gauss/PPC combination. The reason for this is your weapons immediately go exactly where you are aiming. There is no requirement to really "aim", because mechs are huge slow moving targets (even light mechs are hamstrung by the fact that PGI cannot up the speed cap).

What should be required, is what most games have with a bit of a twist, which is the active reticle.

There are a ton of games who use this. Except typically what happens is when you aren't in perfect convergence your weapon shoots off randomly (once again, random is bad).

With this game the active reticle should instead be...

A. If you shoot immediately your weapons all shoot straight from their point on your mech.

B. As your reticle converges your weapons converge.

This creates a situation where it really isn't random, you know where your weapons are going to hit, but they don't immediately all hit the same panel.

We've gone over this so many times, lets stop calling it random.

Oh and even though I just posted all of that. It will never happen. So it is better to stop asking.

Based on the last couple ATD's, the Heat Penalty and the last Creative Director update; Paul is COMPLETELY inept.

We need to push for very simple, band-aid fixes to try and curb some of the issues the game is having.

[Stoicblitzer]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 27 July 2013 - 10:21 AM, said:

Streaks are now useless because of "random".

imo ssrms2s are useless because damage is too low. if this is in preparation for ssrm4 and ssrm6, who knows? i feel like ssrms should have the same damage per missile as srms but less ammo per ton.

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 27 July 2013 - 10:24 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Stoicblitzer, on 27 July 2013 - 10:23 AM, said:

imo ssrms2s are useless because damage is too low. if this is in preparation for ssrm4 and ssrm6, who knows? i feel like ssrms should have the same damage per missile as srms but less ammo per ton.

Random is never going to work in this game as long as we have other weapons that go where you want them too.

The only people who will ever use streaks are people who have terrible internet connections and computers.

And even at 2.0 damage they will suck.

Aiming an SRM 6 to hit a torso is just not that hard.

[Khobai]

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how does recoil fix pinpoint ALPHAS? I fire 2ppcs+gauss together and then i experience some recoil

Because its not recoil exactly. Its very similar though in that when you fire multiple weapons simultaneously or in rapid succession your weapons will spread randomly within a cone of fire. So if you fire 2 PPCs and Gauss at the same time they will spread out. But if you only fire a Gauss it will still be dead-on accurate. So you can still place accurate shots with individual weapons, but you can no longer alphastrike accurately.

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What this game should have is things that create a "skill" requirement in the game. Right now there is very little skill involved.

I disagree. Timing your shots and managing your weapon groups properly to minimize their randomness would be an acquired skill. Besides this game is not overly competitive and never will be so the level of skill youre talking about should not exist in the game anyway. The game is meant to be casually entertaining and nothing more.

Quote

The only people who will ever use streaks are people who have terrible internet connections and computers.

Or commando pilots since the 2D doesnt have a whole lot of other options. SRM2s are quite frankly worse than streaks. And SRM4s are too heavy to fit a max engine.

Edited by Khobai, 27 July 2013 - 10:37 AM.

[Mystere]

Jman5, on 27 July 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

When the game starts the strategy is simple: Your sole mission in this game is to take down a 65+ ton sniper mech even if you immediately die afterward. The loss of both your mech and his mech will result in a small net gain for your team.

Shh! The "monkey see, monkey do" types will be all over this if they find out.






It's a nice plan of misinformation though, especially because there are actually three snipers covering each other.

Edited by Mystere, 27 July 2013 - 10:30 AM.

[Stoicblitzer]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 27 July 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

Random is never going to work in this game as long as we have other weapons that go where you want them too.

hmmm you make statements with such certainty. i think random is fine in this game for guided missiles. instead of the missiles having a chance to hit every component on a mech, they could do 33/33/33% for LT/CT/RT in addition to buffing the damage and reducing ammo per ton. this would make them more useful than now imo.

something approaching balance is possible. wish PGI wouldn't give up so easily.

Edited by Stoicblitzer, 27 July 2013 - 10:39 AM.