21 replies to this topic

[Foxfire]

I have been a primary light pilot for ages in this game.

I agree totally with the need to eliminate the 'lag shield' that lights benefited from for so long.

What I don't agree with is the introduction of artificial 'lag' in the form of HSR to 'balance' latency issues.

What I don't agree with is receiving damage from no source at all(as in.. running along and suddenly losing all armor and half of the internals of a area without any registered source of damage and any way at all to defend yourself against it). What I don't agree with is the inability to spread damage to 'lesser' damaged areas and dieing to someone hitting an unarmored side when you clearly presented an armor side to a direct fire weapon(lasers, PPCes and such taking out front armor from the back).


I know it is a trick to limit the 'effects' of latency on the game but it unduly punishes those who have good connections by introducing situations that they cannot possibly defend against, no matter what they do, in the name of making the game 'appear' fair to those who have worser connections.

[GRiPSViGiL]

I would prefer the game not have such a mechanic and It can be annoying but I think this game is more forgivable since it usually takes a lot of time to get taken down if you didn't get yourself focused by the entire other team.

[Thecure]

Foxfire, on 29 July 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

it unduly punishes those who have good connections

You don't have a good connection. You 're just closer to the server. And I think you would agree that it would be a bad idea to limit their player/customer base.

[Foxfire]

Thecure, on 30 July 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

You don't have a good connection. You 're just closer to the server. And I think you would agree that it would be a bad idea to limit their player/customer base.

I don't think that they should regionalize the game but I do think that they should invest time into a better system than HSR.

[-Natural Selection-]

Foxfire, on 30 July 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

I don't think that they should regionalize the game but I do think that they should invest time into a better system than HSR.

How you ever think HSR would work correctly if there are not stable pings on the server? I spent 8 years running 7 fps servers and ran league tourns. And the sweetspot for them was 15min-150max with no hit issues. No client side bs, artificial lag, or compensation but just plain old server side hit register. There were never issues or complaints with fps games in reguard to these issues until the game comps started trying to cheap out on servers.

Edited by Dozier, 30 July 2013 - 06:21 PM.

[Ghogiel]

Foxfire, on 29 July 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

I know it is a trick to limit the 'effects' of latency on the game but it unduly punishes those who have good connections by introducing situations that they cannot possibly defend against, no matter what they do, in the name of making the game 'appear' fair to those who have worser connections.

It doesn't penalize those with lower pings at all. The issues you experience are the same for them when playing against lower ping players. Them being behind low ping players means they may also experience damage on a component that on their screen they shouldn't be able to have taken. Ahead or behind it doesn't matter, either way you get to shoot what you see.

It does make it fairer to those with higher pings though.

[Mawai]

HSR is host state rewind. This means that the server calculates where you were when the other client fires and then assigns damage appropriately. The problem arises from the fact that the exact point in time when your client draws your opponent as firing is NOT when they actually fired either on the server or the other client. On YOUR client it may look like a miss where you take damage.

This happened to me yesterday when a dual PPC mech fired at my fast moving light mech. The shot drawn on my client missed by a mile and within a second or so the armor on the left arm of my mech vaporized since the server thought it was a hit and my client had drawn it as a miss.

This isn't unfair to anyone. You just need to be aware of it and always turning your mech. Unfortunately, trying to time turning to face an enemy between their shots can be rather difficult as a result since the firing times drawn on your client are only approximate.

However, all of this has to do with network lag. There is communications time between your client and the server as well between the opponent's client and the server. In addition, there is computational time spent on the server. Add to this that there are 16 to 24 clients interacting simultaneously and there will always be lag. Host state rewind is a method of finding some common ground between the 16 different versions of the game being played out simultaneously that is trying to be at least moderately fair to everyone. You can't get perfection without instantaneous communications times and fast computation.

Could HSR be improved? I don't know. It would depend on how they have currently implemented it. However, due to the variable lag between any pair of clients there will always be discrepancies and situations where a hit is drawn on your client that is actually a miss and misses that were actually hits.

[Dreamslave]

Foxfire, on 29 July 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

I have been a primary light pilot for ages in this game.

I agree totally with the need to eliminate the 'lag shield' that lights benefited from for so long.

What I don't agree with is the introduction of artificial 'lag' in the form of HSR to 'balance' latency issues.

What I don't agree with is receiving damage from no source at all(as in.. running along and suddenly losing all armor and half of the internals of a area without any registered source of damage and any way at all to defend yourself against it). What I don't agree with is the inability to spread damage to 'lesser' damaged areas and dieing to someone hitting an unarmored side when you clearly presented an armor side to a direct fire weapon(lasers, PPCes and such taking out front armor from the back).


I know it is a trick to limit the 'effects' of latency on the game but it unduly punishes those who have good connections by introducing situations that they cannot possibly defend against, no matter what they do, in the name of making the game 'appear' fair to those who have worser connections.

It's just the crappy engine PGI decided to use for this game. It would have been SO much better if they actually invested in an engine worth using, but they decided to take the cheap route and are paying for it now.

[Felio]

So this is what was happening when I was humming along in my light, saw an AC/20 explode in front of me, then saw my arm go red. Delightful.

[slayerkdm]

I don't really see this as that big of a deal. Parts are not constantly evaporating one people. Its here and there.

[Foxfire]

slayerkdm, on 02 August 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

I don't really see this as that big of a deal. Parts are not constantly evaporating one people. Its here and there.

The big problem is that it makes defensive maneuvering a pointless exercise.

[Deathlike]

HSR does not add lag at all.

Foxfire, on 02 August 2013 - 04:00 PM, said:

The big problem is that it makes defensive maneuvering a pointless exercise.

I lean towards "you're not doing a good enough job of it".

[Borengar629]

Wow. There's really a disussion going on here.
I just wanted to drop by and say farewell buddy. No need to argue with whiners in my opinion.

[Kiiyor]

HSR is awesome. Prior to it, anything travelling over 80kph for me was for all intents and purposes invulnerable.

Sure, my handy Australian mech-leading chart was ok (lights at 100kph+ = 2 -> 2.5 mech lengths lead) but it was incredibly frustrating.

Now, when HSR is working, I can (sometimes) hit what I actually aim at. When it isn't working, it is extremely noticeable.

It may seem as though you are taking phantom damage, but in reality, i aimed at you on my machine, and I hit you on my machine. The lag between that registering on your client isn't magic, it's just a little late to the party in conveying my awesome shot to you. How can this be improved? Well... It probably can't, until instantaneous communication is invented. They had it in mass effect, how hard can it be?

It sucks sometimes when trying to dodge slower incoming projectiles (especially gauss - now it has usually hit you before it finishes rendering), but other than that, I have a shrine to HSR that I regularly sacrifice small animals to. If you get rid of it, you will brutalise anyone with high pings. We don't deserve it, and it's a little bit racist. PING RACIST. There, I said it.

[Galenit]

Sometimes i hit the enemy where iam targeting it.
Sometimes i need to lead a light at 50-100m with my ppcs one or a half mechlength.
And that with 130-160 ping.

Seem like hsr is working sometimes and sometimes not?

Edited by Galenit, 05 August 2013 - 01:41 AM.

[jakucha]

Probably the most logical reason to take a break. I seem to be lucky in that my hits are registering more often than not (except spiders), but hopefully they can get it up to par for the rest.

[Ronan]

Galenit, on 05 August 2013 - 01:39 AM, said:

Sometimes i hit the enemy where iam targeting it.
Sometimes i need to lead a light at 50-100m with my ppcs one or a half mechlength.
And that with 130-160 ping.

Seem like hsr is working sometimes and sometimes not?

PPCs have travel time, so you HAVE to lead moving targets. HSR is supposed to make how much you need to lead consistent and predictable, and HSR is supposed to make lasers hit without leading.

[Galenit]

Ronan, on 05 August 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:

PPCs have travel time, so you HAVE to lead moving targets. HSR is supposed to make how much you need to lead consistent and predictable, and HSR is supposed to make lasers hit without leading.

Its not predictable, as i wrote, i need to lead sometimes and sometimes not, that counts for lasers too.

The math about that says:
Travel time for a 2000m/s ppc at 50m is 1/40 second, thats 0,025ms
A mech going at 150kph goes over this time around 1m.

If you take my ping into it, the enemy goes around 6m for ping and 1m for the traveltime, 7m is enough to not hit a light.

That would explain why i have to lead.
But that also says that there is sometimes no hsr working that should make me hit and compensate that 6m from ping.
The real strange thing for me is the sometimes ...

Edited by Galenit, 05 August 2013 - 05:39 AM.

[Twisted Power]

I have some fraps gameplay of one of our friends from the NGNG TS server who is somewhere in Germany and has horrible connections. Every few seconds the enemies mechs will pause for him (lag out) then jump ahead to where they are supposed to be. During this time he can PERFECTALLY hit the mech and they will take full damage.

We tried to replicate this to show PGI and the only way we found was to turn on lots of torrents to slow down the connection so that you have crap ping, and the mechs pause every few seconds , then you can fire at them while they are not moving and perfectly hit everybody too. It was not exactly the same as the guys in Germany though. Also,It is not a fun way to play. But that person has sent in a support ticket (actually I think twice) but I don't think PGI has really done anything about it or even can do anything about it. They are unable to fix the code or they would have not put HSR into the game in the first place.

Just know that there are people out there who get high packets loss pings every now and then, and on their screen YOU STOP MOVING for like 3 seconds. This is why they can hit you when your behind cover and this is why you magically lose sections of your mech. On their screen they hit you and that is all that matters.

But in the end, I don't know what you suggest they do (because I agree HSR is a horrible idea like almost everything else they have done) but If they can't make the code work this is their only option.

Edited by Twisted Power, 05 August 2013 - 10:51 AM.

[Fuerchtegott]

Twisted Power, on 05 August 2013 - 10:47 AM, said:

I have some fraps gameplay of one of our friends from the NGNG TS server who is somewhere in Germany and has horrible connections. Every few seconds the enemies mechs will pause for him (lag out) then jump ahead to where they are supposed to be. During this time he can PERFECTALLY hit the mech and they will take full damage.

We tried to replicate this to show PGI and the only way we found was to turn on lots of torrents to slow down the connection so that you have crap ping, and the mechs pause every few seconds , then you can fire at them while they are not moving and perfectly hit everybody too. It was not exactly the same as the guys in Germany though. Also,It is not a fun way to play. But that person has sent in a support ticket (actually I think twice) but I don't think PGI has really done anything about it or even can do anything about it. They are unable to fix the code or they would have not put HSR into the game in the first place.

Just know that there are people out there who get high packets loss pings every now and then, and on their screen YOU STOP MOVING for like 3 seconds. This is why they can hit you when your behind cover and this is why you magically lose sections of your mech. On their screen they hit you and that is all that matters.

But in the end, I don't know what you suggest they do (because I agree HSR is a horrible idea like almost everything else they have done) but If they can't make the code work this is their only option.

And with a not horrible connection in germany, the best thing you can do is log out of the game by the time the number of your opponents with below 60 ms ping increases.

How horrible is your friends connection? Because what you describe I have never seen.
What I have seen, and far more often heared in TS is "I 35 pinpoint damaged him 6 times on ct an still yellow ?!? Sorry guys, I'm off ..."