18 replies to this topic

[ExAstris]

This was originally going to be a reply to another thread, but I think its important enough to be its own.



I find it odd that a module with ultimately limited impact on gameplay gets a sizeable nerf (perhaps rightfully so) while an equipment piece with vastly greater impact, usefulness, and gameplay destabilizing effects has only gotten a series of band-**** and no serious nerf to its usefulness, pervasiveness, or the plethora of resulting imbalance issues.

I'm not sure how this problem has persisted so long, but I suspect part of it might be that the players and PGI both think that gaining any information for your side must be a rare, precious, and costly thing to do, while taking it from your enemies should be far easier.



Lets look at 3 systems:

We have a module that gives position pings of moving enemies only at 250m. The enemies are not targetable, you do not get names, mech types, loadouts, facings, paper dolls, or the opportunity for target locks. Nor is this information shared with your allies.

We have another module that costs 40k c-bills, is single use, can be shot down, cannot move once launched, and provides a 400m ECM piercing sensor that hovers outside of disruption range. It can provide all the aforementioned information, but again has harsh drawbacks and costs a good chunk of your potential winnings to ever field (almost the entire difference between winning and losing for some players, meaning unless it guarantees your victory, its pretty much never economical to use).

And finally we have a 1.5 ton, 2 slot piece of equipment that denies all basic target information (red brackets, name, mech type, paper doll, weapon loadout, missile lock-ability) at all normal combat ranges (down to 180m unless you have some sensor boosters to move it out to a whopping 250m). And then once inside the 180m, it denies you transmission of that information to all your allies. So unless you specifically take one of the bandaids (which cost as much as the ECM and do FAR less), the ECM automatically denies all basic target information on the mech its taken on.



Hopefully the point should be clear. The information warfare value of ECM is mountains above the UAV and Seismic Sensor. And its not because its an equipment piece either. Upgrading SS to a 1.5ton 2crit equipment piece would reduce its use, but not obliterate it. The UAV would still be useless as such an equipment piece. And the ECM as a module with no other mounting costs would be even more of a no-brainer than it currently is compared to the other modules in question, which have uses, but are not absolutely required (though seismic got close when it was at 400m, mostly for lack of any other broadly useful modules).

Yes, I know BAP counters ECM inside 150m. Yes I know TAG overrides the stealth so long as you aren't in the bubble. Yes I know UAV overrides it. And PPC's momentarily. We've already covered why UAV isn't a proper counter. TAG costs too much to take as a counter (a weapon slot and a ton/crit), its only used for LRM boats that need the clustering bonus and the capacity to lock stealthed units. And PPCs don't work long enough to get much more use out of it than a single ping of the seismic sensor would. And BAP isn't a counter to ECM's most powerful attribute, the total domination of information flow about your mech. Only enemies that have already found you and closed to 150m and equipped the equally costly BAP have a chance to expose you. For the rest of the game you lollygag about with only the enemies actually looking at you at that moment aware of your location and able to respond to you (barring extremely well coordinated pre-mades on voice-comms).


Its not even close to a balanced field of information warfare where the gathering and denying each have appropriate costs/benefits.




So I say again, the only way to even out the information warfare is to strip ECM of its most powerful attribute, the denial of basic sensor information at normal combat ranges.

Preferably, it should simply not stealth anyone at any range. The red brackets and associated content should never be denied for such a pittance in cost. (Maybe the drawbacks of TT stealth armor would be enough to balance it for the user mech, but that's a discussion for another thread, this thread is about the balance in the game we have NOW, I do not ultimately care about matching or diverting from TT.)

Secondary options that might bring it far closer to balanced would be to allow ECM to reduce the range at which you could gain target information by a few hundred meters. So a base mech with normal sensors that would start getting that information at 800m, would only get it at 600 against ECM mechs (and slower as per ECMs other attributes).

Another option would be, if we absolutely cannot bring ourselves to remove the stealth field entirely, then we should let BAP cut through the stealth at all ranges. Mechs that take the counter to ECM, simply get to detect, lock, gather, and share information about ECM mechs just as though they had a TAG laser on them. It won't cancel the other effects of that ECM unless that mech is within 150m, but any mech caught in the BAPmobile's LOS and radar range will be fed into the BAPmobile's sensor system just like any other.


Really, the information imbalance cannot be genuinely treated without a straight removal of, or a full-hard-counter to, the ECM stealth field.

Information warfare balance will be better off without it. Mech balance will be better without it. Weapon balance will be better without it.



For a more complete breakdown of the MWO's information warfare puzzle, see the first link in my sig. It is a fair bit out of date as it does not address the addition of BAP to the game, which largely remedied my second biggest problem with ECM, that it completely denied lock-on missiles all functionality. However, that stealth field remains, and remains woefully out of line in terms of its cost-to-benefit ratio and the damaging effects it has on various aspects of game balance.

[stjobe]

ECM should be Guardian ECM, not Guardian ECM + Angel ECM + Stealth Armor + Null Signature System.
Seismic Sensor should be removed. It's just too good.

[Team Leader]

Yes, this times infinity, ECM was super unbalanced from the start. They borked it at the beginning and shouldnt have put it in without player feedback. Instead, they forced it on us and caused a cascade effect to the current (pretty un-fun for most people) metagame. If they just gave it its TT capabilities, or at least those from any other MW game, it would be fine and balanced and there wouldnt be a need for BS counters which are exactly the opposite of ECMs purpose, like BAP and TAG currently. ECM is supposed to counter them, not the other way around... I would really like it if they went back and fixed ECM once and for all.

[Master Q]

stjobe, on 30 July 2013 - 03:14 PM, said:

ECM should be Guardian ECM, not Guardian ECM + Angel ECM + Stealth Armor + Null Signature System.
Seismic Sensor should be removed. It's just too good.

You should not get 10 tons of equipment for 1.5 tons. It really is that simple.

I have an idea.

Let's create a module that functions as an on/off switch for enemy PPCs, Gauss, and Autocannon and see how well it fares.

[General Taskeen]

ECM will have to be changed at some point, not only for the sake of keeping to the spirit of Battle Tech (and the already balanced functions of ECM that have existed in previous Mech titles), but also if they intend to expand the Mech Lab build possibilities and Era "Technologies" as many Mechs later on include Angel ECM stock, and later Stealth Armor and Null is re-introduced. If ECM stays in its current format, I shudder to think how AECM would be balanced...

I hope for a future in MWO where Information Warfare actually exists and each of those items work how they are supposed in accordance as separate items, not with fantasy features. Many of those items have clear advantages/disadvantages and can only be mounted with certain equipment per canon.

Edited by General Taskeen, 30 July 2013 - 07:03 PM.

[Jesus Box]

Hey look another ECM thread. I thought they all died off. Nice to see one again. We all know how much Piranha likes and reads these. *chuckles*

[ExAstris]

Multiple days, hundreds of views.

No dissention and alot of agreement that it needs to be changed. Granted, there are alot of different reasons that people have for wanting it changed, but still, it seems fairly well agreed that the current iteration is still not optimal, even with all the bandaids.

PGI/Paul: Please, for the love of rational arguments, remove the stealth feature from ECM. While the bandaids may have quieted many and convinced a few that nothing is wrong, and time may have eroded the resolve of others, ECM is still a major balance issue that warrants first rate attention and action.

Jesus Box, on 30 July 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

We all know how much Piranha likes and reads these. *chuckles*

I haven't spent a dime on this game since ECM was implimented, nor do I plan to change that stance until the stealth field gets axed.

MWO has a ton of great things going for it, which make it such a shame that its information warfare systems are so horrendously poorly blanaced and the weapon balance is so painfully slow and innadequate. If it weren't for those two things, I would be playing the hell out of this game.

But as it stands, I spend more time posting about the major problems that keep going unadressed than I do playing. And given my account age and post totals, I think that gives a good indication of how much time I spend playing.

[Mystere]

Implementing 3PV as a drone, especially if PGI seamlessly integrates it as part of the gameplay experience, opens up a lot of possibilities on the information warfare front.

[Deathlike]

The primary issue as it currently stands is that ECM does too much for very little... but at this point, I'm resigned to seeing PGI not really understand this issue and they want use to pay for the counters... like Seismic, with GXP through mech XP conversions and UAV... by paying the 15MC or GXP tolls.

It will eventually lead to a system that cannot be balanced properly.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Ahh ecm, a mechanic so broken that less that 6% of all mechs in the game can carry it. Yet so common that it show up in 99.999% of matches.

At 400,000 C-Bills it is as cheap and plentiful as a PPC, and at 1.5 tons and 2 critical slots can be fit into any mech, yet somehow only 5 mechs have the special unobtanioum-encrused lostech mounting bracket required to carry it.

A technology so powerful it has been forbidden on all hero mechs.

And the one thing, that cannot be fixed no matter the loss of new and vetran players.

Edited by Agent 0 Fortune, 02 August 2013 - 02:02 PM.

[Deathlike]

Agent 0 Fortune, on 02 August 2013 - 02:01 PM, said:

Ahh ecm, a mechanic so broken that less that 6% of all mechs in the game can carry it. Yet so common that it show up in 99.999% of matches.

The mechs that carry ECM are generally the most desirable variant of the chassis (exceptions would include the Cicada and Atlas).

Quote

At 400,000 C-Bills it is as cheap and plentiful as a PPC, and at 1.5 tons and 2 critical slots can be fit into any mech, yet somehow only 5 mechs have the special unobtanioum-encrused lostech mounting bracket required to carry it.

I don't think cost was ever an issue. Right now, it stands to be the only MUST HAVE tech if you DO use an ECM capable mech. Not carrying it makes you crazy or just foolish... whichever sounds better.

Quote

A technology so powerful it has been forbidden on all hero mechs.

There might be a day of reckoning. It would probably happen someday... like CW... soon™.

Quote

And the one thing, that cannot be fixed no matter the loss of new and vetran players.

Well, consider this... ECM's primary attribute is to provide missile protection to itself. Outside of the Atlas, every other mech that can carry it can shake off missiles w/o issue and take minimal damage (unless, the mech is legged). The other major attribute is that is provides a cloak that covers EVERYONE within its radius. The issue however is that the cloak is omni-directional instead of LOS based, which allows its coverage to be greatly beneficial. It helps groups of lights scrambling to a cap point... but it also allows the Atlai to group up and hide the murderous poptarts and other dangerous mechs.

So... in many ways... the 1.5 ton/2 slot tech is a must have... just because it is limited to the mechs in question, doesn't make it UP.. but the attributes that make up ECM in many ways is too much for too little. BAP does not have the quite the same universal demand for its utility... yet it costs the same as ECM AND can be equipped on any mech AND on any part of its body (except the arms, due to construction rules).

Whatever I guess.

Edited by Deathlike, 02 August 2013 - 03:55 PM.

[Volomon]

I'm confused every time I've seen a ECM target (can't lock on) and fire on it, it becomes target-able. Unless those targets were being shielded by someone else, not sure.

Right? If so it's no big deal at all.

Edited by Volomon, 02 August 2013 - 04:04 PM.

[Roland]

Are people actually suggesting that the Seismic module was anything less than CRAZY overpowered?
Wow. Just... wow.

[Zyllos]

Deathlike, on 02 August 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

ECM's primary attribute is to provide missile protection to itself

This is not true.

AECM's primary attribute is to provide missile protection to itself and those around them.

GECM's primary attribute is to flank, scout, and disrupt.

[Sybreed]

if anything, we should have had a test server for ECM so could test it and give feedback...

[Deathlike]

Zyllos, on 02 August 2013 - 06:27 PM, said:

This is not true.

AECM's primary attribute is to provide missile protection to itself and those around them.

GECM's primary attribute is to flank, scout, and disrupt.

I'm only talking about ECM with respect to MWO... not BT/TT. I've heard too much of how ECM and the BAP "buff" is not TT by any stretch of the imagination.

Even MW3+MW4's implementation was tame compared to this terrible concept that is MWO's ECM.

[Sephlock]

[Brilig]

It would also be nice to be able to switch normal radar to passive. Greatly reduce the range at which an enemy can detect you, but also reduces your detection range. That would give the OP's ECM another perk, reduces the range the enemy can detect you at, but you can still keep your sensors on.

[HIemfire]

Volomon, on 02 August 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

I'm confused every time I've seen a ECM target (can't lock on) and fire on it, it becomes target-able. Unless those targets were being shielded by someone else, not sure.

Right? If so it's no big deal at all.

You are using PPCs I'll wager.