37 replies to this topic

[MaddMaxx]

Ph30nix, on 31 July 2013 - 06:29 AM, said:

problem is lights that can basically carry no other weapon are severely penalized by the extra heat. I don't see 2-4 Ml as an alpha even if its all the weapons your carrying. but even group firing in a light your not going to get off many attacks before your about to over heat.

Not that lights can't still be effective but its another thing holding them back and in the heavier mechs its barely an issues since they have the tonnage and crit slots to load up more DHS.

The Medium Laser Heat Penalty starts a 6 units (7th adds +1). I really don't see how that can affect those Lights who like to carry them.

Here is the current Heat Scale. The PPC and ER are linked I believe.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 31 July 2013 - 10:10 AM.

[Pht]

Xerxys, on 30 July 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

I just caught something about the medium laser that I thought was wrong and after checking online a bit I found that MWO is running them too hot.

Medium lasers in the BTU only generate 3 heat, but MWO is running them at 4. I know this may not seem like much to anyone else, but if you run something like the hunchie or the BlackJack in their all energy loadouts and use the medium lasers that's 8-9 additional heat generated on an alpha strike. I've been away from the game for a while and was just wondering why PGI felt inclined to bend over the energy weapon lovers yet again. Even at only 4 ML's you're generating 16 heat per shot if shooting all 4 lasers, and most likely more since the heat system adds heat for multiple weapons being fired.

Was their a reason for this increase? I searched around the forums, but didn't see anything.

Bryan Ekman said:

stjobe: Every ballistic weapon has had about a 50% increase in damage per ton of ammo, except for the MG, which got an 80% decrease in damage per ton of ammo. What was the reasoning behind treating the Machine Gun differently from all other weapons in the conversion from BattleTech to MWO?

A: We don’t have a standard conversion rule of thumb. We as ses each weapon, how it’s being used, what the desired role we want for MWO, and tune it accordingly. With each new `Mech we add, or new feature, we have to reevaluate the performance of every weapon.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2107875

In the start, they used the TT weapons and armor values - but they didn't use the combat mechanic those values were balanced for. They put them into the FPS combat mechanic; and the necessary result from that combination was that mechs were dying VERY quickly.

So they doubled the internal and external armor numbers... which tossed off the balance on the smaller weapons, and nerfed the smaller mechs, so they bumped up the rate of fire on the smaller weapons... etc, etc, etc.

Long story short: It's the problem of unintended consequences from trying to fit a round peg in a triangular hole instead of making a simple and systematic system or using an already built and well known system.

Edited by Pht, 31 July 2013 - 10:18 AM.

[Bunko]

BTW SL have a heat of 2 when in TT it's 1, so you could be shooting twice as many SLs for the same heat.

The heat of ML and SL makes people likely to use a ML. 1 ML vs 2SL = same heat, same weight, with the only tradeoffs being critical slot, range, and slight damage difference. If ML heat were brought down to 3 and SL heat brought down to 1, there would be a greater reason to use SL over MLs being damage would be near double for SL with the same heat.

[FatBabyThompkins]

No Guts No Glory, on 31 July 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

Seriously? None of the weapons are 100% TT stats, so what's the problem? That extra 1 point of heat per laser isn't an issue. Unless you use single heatsinks, but single heatsinks suuuuuuuuuuuuuuck.

1 heat doesn't sound like a lot until you realize it was a 33% increase in heat generation per laser. 33% is a fairly large adjustment. Smaller mechs were hit for greater impact as they do not have the tonnage to overcome such a large heat increase.

The 6ML Jenner, the penultimate skirmisher IMO, puts 30pts to an unsuspecting mech. It can fire 4 times before shutdown. 120 points is usually enough to core an Atlas who isn't paying attention, or wing him just for laughs. Point being, that is the extent of one of the most powerful skirmishers before they have to run and take cover to cool down. That sounds about right to me. Would I like to stay and pew pew more? Sure. But that is a considerable amount of damage in a short period of time considering the light can the get the F out of dodge in a quick second.

[Tezcatli]

Medium lasers are fine right now.

[Royalewithcheese]

I like how PGI increases heat on one of the two bread-and-butter light brawling weapons by 33%, cuts damage on the other one by 40% (and only decreases the cut to 20% after that weapon is revealed to be glitched) and then wonders why the meta is dominated by heavy/assault sniping.

[Bunko]

MaddMaxx, on 31 July 2013 - 10:05 AM, said:

The Medium Laser Heat Penalty starts a 6 units (7th adds +1). I really don't see how that can affect those Lights who like to carry them.

I don't think he's talking about the Heat Penalty rules, he's saying if it was 1 less heat Light mechs (who use them as primary weapons) would be more heat eff.

Edited by Bunko, 31 July 2013 - 10:35 AM.

[NinetyProof]

Regardless of TT .. regardless of the ***** PGI bashers ... regardless of all that crap ... the bottom line is:

Medium Lasers are Fine right now ... and arguably the best weapon for heat / ton. They absolutely fill a place in the current meta and are really the *go to* weapon when you have extra heat / tonnage to spare.

ML's are fine right now with regards to other energy weapons. PGI should be balancing all the engery weapons, and there are some changes on the horizon. Expect even more changes within weeks after next tuesdays path.

[Ph30nix]

Bunko, on 31 July 2013 - 10:34 AM, said:

I don't think he's talking about the Heat Penalty rules, he's saying if it was 1 less heat Light mechs (who use them as primary weapons) would be more heat eff.

thats exactly what im saying, i wasnt talking about the scaling crap. Seem's PGI thinks very short sighted just like most forum goers.

Most people fail to realize this is a game of rock paper scissors. Every mech and weapon loadout has a weakness. No matter what loadout you put into your mech you will run into an enemy who skills being equal will be able to mop the floor with you.

THATS HOW THE GAME IS SUPPOSED TO BE!!!! in those situations you rely on your teammates to pick up the slack and handle them, or you use your piloting ability to get yourself the advantage you need.

the ML having its heat returned to what it used to be would go a long way towards getting light and medium mechs back into the party.

[Royalewithcheese]

NinetyProof, on 31 July 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Regardless of TT .. regardless of the ***** PGI bashers ... regardless of all that crap ... the bottom line is:

Medium Lasers are Fine right now ... and arguably the best weapon for heat / ton. They absolutely fill a place in the current meta and are really the *go to* weapon when you have extra heat / tonnage to spare.

ML's are fine right now with regards to other energy weapons. PGI should be balancing all the engery weapons, and there are some changes on the horizon. Expect even more changes within weeks Therefore next tuesdays path.

IMO tonnage yes (it really is an amazing gun for 1 ton), heat no (damage per heat is a huge limiting factor for this as something other than a backup weapon.)

[DamnCatte]

Medium Lasers are quite effective, despite what some PPC enthusiasts might claim. I pair 4 of them with my double gauss, for a pretty solid 20 point slap when people get close, or when I ram against the flank of PPC/Gauss mechs.

Pound for pound, even with the bit of a heat boost to them, you can still use a good number, and they do solid damage as long as you're not flailing your mouse about. (Or playing pinpoint barrier style with your trackball.)

[Tombstoner]

One Medic Army, on 30 July 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

Anyone else find it funny that the two mechs in the game with the most energy hardpoints are 45 and 50ton mechs?

i do.. it also goes to show how inferior the atlas Hard points are in comparison to the stalker. no one complains about the 4-6 ppc atlas do they. it took a new mech to break the game... cant wait for my low heat 1 gauss and 1 ultra 20 for my 55 point alpha work around of the new heat system or 6 x ERML for 42 points. try those in the sway back and see the QQ flow. come on clan tech

Edited by Tombstoner, 31 July 2013 - 12:10 PM.

[CB Cyrix]

I tested tonight and for some reason since the patch medium lasers are much higher heat, im only firing 4 and its gone up LOADS since I last played on monday.... WTF

[Tetatae Squawkins]

Paul got killed by a swayback 8 months ago and it was on his list of things to nerf.

[Training Instructor]

It hurts mediums more than lights. I think the med laser nerf was really about the Jenner. Super high speed, hard to hit, carrying great firepower. They nerfed it by nerfing the medium lasers it relies on so often.

Unfortunately, in the current game, nerfing Jenners boating medium lasers really hurts medium pilots. The mediums have room for more heat sinks, but all of their extra heatsinks are of the inferior 1.4 variety, despite carrying the label of double. The advantage here always goes to the Jenners, because of their superior speed to every medium except the Cicada.

An elited Blackjack 3J with 6 medium lasers doesn't actually feel anywhere near as viable as a Jenner with the same layout, because the Jenner is moving almost 60kph faster, which more than makes up for the armor difference of 35-45 tons. The BJ3 can pack 17dhs and an AMS to go along with that STD 235, but at that point you just have to be a much much better pilot than them to make up for the disparity in speed and profile.

[nitra]

those who want the medium lasers heat reduced, have not anticipated the havok a cda-2 toting 6 ml double sinked and mastered would create.

or maybe they have ...

Edited by nitra, 31 July 2013 - 02:15 PM.

[Royalewithcheese]

nitra, on 31 July 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

those who want the medium lasers heat reduced, have not anticipated the havok a cda-2 toting 6 ml double sinked and mastered would create.

or maybe they have ...

It would be quite nice to see Mediums wreaking havoc for once. They generally just get their havoc wreaked these days.

[CancR]

Royalewithcheese, on 31 July 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

It would be quite nice to see Mediums wreaking havoc for once. They generally just get their havoc wreaked these days.

You missed the g;glory days (how sad is that. This game was far better back in closed beta) when MLs only had 3 heat and there where mediums and lights every where, because it was closer to being true to BT where weight doesn't mean win.

Sadly, all the skill socialist cried because none of them could figure out you can take the hunch off a hunchback, so they cried and they cried till the devs made them better at the game by making lights and mediums worse.