16 replies to this topic

[An Ax Murderer]

The test subject of this experiment will be the VTR-9B, holding three A/C 2's.

I can fire all three at the same time, and generate negligible heat over time.

I can fire all three in chain fire, and generate virtually no heat.

What I cannot figure out is why I can't set each A/C to its own weapon group, and have the same results.

Example:

The first A/C is on weapon group one
The second A/C is on weapon group two
The third A/C is on weapon group three

I fire the first group, shortly followed by the other two, thus causing it to be a continuous stream of bullets (Makes it sound cool, and it is continually shooting)

The first few shots will cause a little bit of heat, but then it spikes insanely high.

My question is: Why can I fire all three on group fire, with minimal heat, but not stagger them?

[Erata]

My guess is so that you can't place an enemy under a constant barrage of cockpit shake even though that's the only thing triple AC/2s have going for them.

[Bilbo]

Chain-fire doesn't break the rule. Grouped, the penalty is negligible and the timer resets almost immediately after the weapon cool down. Your method not only fires them faster than .5 seconds apart, but does so without ever resetting the timer.

Edited by Bilbo, 31 July 2013 - 11:55 AM.

[Hans Von Lohman]

There is also a bug with the AC-2 right now. They spike extra heat when you get to 20% or so, and there was no mention of this bug having been fixed in the last patch.

My guess is the bug is still in effect.

[I am a Robot]

Probably (as in a guess) to do something with the 5-6 ac2 macro machine gun that was going on for a while.

[Roughneck45]

Because you are getting a higher rate of fire than the other two modes.

All 3 at the same time gives you a small amount of cooling between shots.

Setting all 3 to chain fire actually fires the lot slower than their recycle time, thus giving you the best cooling.

Mixing the 3 to get a continuous stream gets you the best cockpit shake, but leaves no time for cooling between shots, so it generates the most heat.

Edited by Roughneck45, 31 July 2013 - 12:05 PM.

[Master Q]

It has to do with the how the max alpha code functions.

Max Alpha is 3 for an Autocannon. Firing a fourth 4 within 0.5 seconds "of a trigger pull" generates the extra heat.

However, the timer is reset each time the weapon type is fired.

Fire all three -> 0.5 seconds (plus finger reaction time) -> Fire all three again, no penalty.

Fire First -> 0.2 seconds later Fire Second (resets timer) -> 0.2 seconds later Fire Third (resets timer) -> 0.2 seconds later Fire First Again (because its 0.5 second recharge has hit).

You just fired four AC/2s within 0.6 seconds, but you "stacked" them all with trigger pulls closer than 0.5 seconds to another firing and so you added an extra 0.1 seconds to the timer by doing so.

It winds up this way because the AC/2 has an abnormally small (0.5 seconds, equivalent to the timer length) recharge rate. No other weapon appears to have this because Flamers and Machine Guns don't have a max alpha and everything else has a recharge rate of 1.0 seconds or above.

Compare similarly: ERPPCs have a max alpha value of 2. Slot three as chainfire.

Fire First -> Wait 0.45 Seconds, Fire Second (reset timer) -> Wait 0.15 Seconds, Fire Third (Max Alpha Heat Penalty will be applied).

Alternatively, groupfire them and:

Fire 1&2 as Group One -> Wait 0.6 Seconds, Fire 3 (No Heat Penalty).

[Bilbo]

Fast fire reduces the cool down time as well, if I recall correctly.

[An Ax Murderer]

That answered my question! Thanks!

[Dracol]

I too have noticed a drastic raise in heat build up with my trip ac/2 Dragon after the heat penalty system was added.

Was thinking about it and realized the system can be tested to see if it is beacuase the. 5 sec timer is being reset.

How to test:
Take a 4 ppc mech out
Fire 2 ppcs at once, then a third ppc .3 secs later
The third ppc will receive the heat penalty (3ppcs fired within. 5 secs)
Then fire the fourth ppc .3 secs later

If the timer resets after the third shot, the fourth will receive the full heat penalty even though only 2 ppcs were fired within. 5 seconds of each other

If the time does not reset, then the fourth ppc will just generate its base heat

I am guessing the timer resets.....

[Fred013]

I thought the heat penalty only applied to the weapons listed in patch notes, aka not AC/2s.

[Tennex]

even with AC2 you get this.

its a bug


you can fire 4 AC2s just fine when alphaing. But when you staggerfire AC2s its like there is a max alpha limit of 1.

Edited by Tennex, 31 July 2013 - 05:42 PM.

[Jam the Bam]

They didn't mention the AC2 anywhere in the patch notes, I think its a bug, there was something similar before the patch as well, it just seems to have got a bit worse.

I really hope its a bug because it was the only way to have fun with AC2's, they are pretty pathetic otherwise.

Also macro firing them does NOT increase your dps, grouping them all together and holding down fire has the same effect, they fire as soon as they have cooled down so the dps is identical. You can't increase each weapons dps beyond its damage * fire rate. All the macro does is stagger them so they sound cool.

[Lord Perversor]

Master Q, on 31 July 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

It has to do with the how the max alpha code functions.

Max Alpha is 3 for an Autocannon. Firing a fourth 4 within 0.5 seconds "of a trigger pull" generates the extra heat.

However, the timer is reset each time the weapon type is fired.

Fire all three -> 0.5 seconds (plus finger reaction time) -> Fire all three again, no penalty.

Fire First -> 0.2 seconds later Fire Second (resets timer) -> 0.2 seconds later Fire Third (resets timer) -> 0.2 seconds later Fire First Again (because its 0.5 second recharge has hit).

You just fired four AC/2s within 0.6 seconds, but you "stacked" them all with trigger pulls closer than 0.5 seconds to another firing and so you added an extra 0.1 seconds to the timer by doing so.

It winds up this way because the AC/2 has an abnormally small (0.5 seconds, equivalent to the timer length) recharge rate. No other weapon appears to have this because Flamers and Machine Guns don't have a max alpha and everything else has a recharge rate of 1.0 seconds or above.

Compare similarly: ERPPCs have a max alpha value of 2. Slot three as chainfire.

Fire First -> Wait 0.45 Seconds, Fire Second (reset timer) -> Wait 0.15 Seconds, Fire Third (Max Alpha Heat Penalty will be applied).

Alternatively, groupfire them and:

Fire 1&2 as Group One -> Wait 0.6 Seconds, Fire 3 (No Heat Penalty).

Yes and NO

To make it easy, the Alpha Heat penalty it's a built in timer plus quantity, if you fire BEFORE the timer runs off (0,5 sec) the system add the weapon to the total count then resets the timer.

Quick example an Stalker with 6 ppc fire one each 0,4 sec since the timer never runs off it keeps adding every shoot as total in the heat penalty and will generate same heat than firing the 6x PPC at once (minus the dissipation rate) even when firing in a 2'4 sec window

Same Stalker fire 2 PPC wait 0,5 then fire another 2 PPC waits another 0,5 fire the last 2 remaining since he waits for the timer to run off everytime he incurs in no Heat penalty despite firing all 6 in just 1,5 sec.


The thing here is that the AC/2 IT'S NOT AFFECTED BY THIS (sorry for caps but it's imperative) despite what the Smurfy/Mechromancer pages says, those penalty are not active for Ac/2, neither you see an exponential Heat increase but just an spike around 30-60% total heat window wich is unexplained so far, and then from that 60% to 100% heat increase raises the same as from 0-30%.

Also sometimes this Heat spike can be just avoided (if you are lucky) and this also affects 2x Ac/2 firing.

That's a Bug that some vet players with Ac/2 noticed in the 1st-2nd run after the 16th patch and despite how it looks it works *Absolutely* different than the heat penalty mechanics since the fire rate would keep raising the heat generation exponentially and not return suddenly to normal after that 60% mark, hence the reason why Ac/2 based mechs have close to a 50% uptime firing rate due that.

[Royalewithcheese]

Fred013, on 31 July 2013 - 05:23 PM, said:

I thought the heat penalty only applied to the weapons listed in patch notes, aka not AC/2s.

I think you underestimate PGI's ability to poorly document their game

[Lord Perversor]

Been running a serie of tests lately and well.

It seems that right now there is some Heat penalty for boating Ac/2 (can't say how many does this right now) but still the numbers are quite off.

Running quad Ac/2 now SPIKES heat exponentially unlike what happened the 16th patch so it seems the issue has become aggravated. Running 2x Ac/2 seems to be working fine so far but still needs to run some more test.

I hope PGI can look at it and fix it, still the use is wonky if you fire them 2 by 2 the effect it's incredibly quick and the mech will shut down after the 6th or 7th shoot. if you use them all at once it seems the effect it's reduced but still the heat spikes will quick in.

[Ph30nix]

part of me thinks it has to do with a glitch in the 0.5 penalty timer.

since the ac/2's are the only weapon that can fire at that speed or faster with the mech skill they are one of the only ones who experience it.

but i think when not group firing it resets the firing timer for every shot and adds the previously fired weapons to the penalty pool.

so with ac'2s if you have 4 of them (i will say .4 fire speed for simplicity) top line is time, bottom is fired with (#) being total counted towards penalty

0(sec)-----------------------0.4-----0.5-------------------0.8----------------1.0----------1.2----------1.5-------1.6-------------2.0
2(2)-------------------------2(4)---------------------------2(6)------------------------------2(8)--------------------2(10)

so even though your never firing more then 2 at a time and the time between firing is more then .5 seconds at multiple points by the time you get to your 4th salvo at the 1.6 second mark the penalty timer is STILL counting your initial 2 shots so to the penalty you have now fired a total of 10 ac/2's inside of its penalty timer.

only way i can think of to explain the massive jumps in heat. You still see this extra heat no matter how you fire, but chain fire is the worst since the penalty timer never gets to go away.

Edited by Ph30nix, 01 August 2013 - 06:23 AM.