55 replies to this topic

[Stelar 7]

I see no problem exploring off lore ideas. Personally I like the idea of the ghost heat fix. One of the things that bothered me about Bill's targeting computer idea is that the alpha becomes less effective by forced scatter. Your capacitor idea is fine with me by lore, we have power plants and max loads, however it handicaps everyone on the front end. It also doesn't encourage balanced builds, just staggered boating of whatever the best it allows.

The heat idea has the potential to keep alpha as a viable last resort, pinpoint alpha and then severe shutdown or heat. Action, and then consequence.

From the other angle, while it might be nice to have a time machine and redo development, cof, different game engine, whatever, those ideas detract from actually fixing things by ignoring the reality of the situation and then burry functional ideas behind their noise. Same for radical new mechanics.

Finally, the game that most resembles the books, and mwo style play, was not stock battletech. Solaris 7 used a 2.5 second round, weapon delays, linking of weapons and massive heat penalties to balance faster paced gameplay. Somewhere between cycle times, heat and armor there is a good balance for the game that will keep sniping viable, while making a good brawling push a sniper's nightmare, and a third strategy, or fourth. We seem to be close to that, at all but the highest ELO and we are doing ourselves a disservice in that bracket. I keep hearing Sirrin in the back of my head at high elo, is dual ppc Gause really op or have we embraced it and failed to play to win. I am not skilled enough, and lack data, to answer that question. So my next assault mech will be a poptart.

[FatBabyThompkins]

I agree Stelar. I've read the many TT discussions and how balanced it is. But the argument always revolves around 10 seconds and would 10 seconds to fire be too long. What people usually do not realize is that 10 seconds has a maximum amount of damage that can be put out randomly to a mech. If you want a faster game, make it 2.5 second cycle time and quadruple armor and heat dissipation. Mechs would live relatively the same amount of time. But where the entire equation breaks down is in convergence. The damage values that were balanced around ammo and heat do not balance so well around pinpoint convergence. If you double armor to stay off pinpoint convergence, then you've made sustained DPS builds harder as they have to sustain that DPS twice as long, which in turn with movement causes the damage to spread to other doubled armor areas. Basically, it further reinforces pinpoint damage as you're sure to get a good chunk of damage to one location (regardless if that is CT/Leg/Face). This is what has happened where you've got a 1/3 cycle time of TT and doubled armor. You're actually putting out three times more damage, but on only doubled armor. You've made the sustained and spread DPS weaker while making pinpoint weapons (regardless if converged) more effective all the while with an overall reduction in survivability. Combined with pinpoint convergence, you've got a truly broken system.

I do not agree that a capacitance based system would be the savior of the game. I would say that it would help regulate the amount of damage that can be alpha'd or burst. It also puts a soft limit on sustained DPS. Ballistics could then be balanced against that system where they do more damage, but have, likely fewer, ammunition. Burst DPS of the ballistics would then naturally be higher but their sustained DPS would be lower than energy weapons. If ballistic DPS is too sustainable, move them towards a cartridge based system that allows 40 damage before a "reload" further enforcing their burst nature. AC/2 gets 20 shots, AC/5 gets 8 shots, AC/10 gets 4 shots and AC/20 gets 2 shots. Say this is your mech moving a cartridge from the legs (people still keep ammo in their legs to reload an arm mounted weapon, right?). Or instead of catridges, call it barrel heat and the system shuts down that weapon to ensure you don't warp it. Once you have a good soft cap on how much damage any mech can dish out in the short and long term, you have a way to balance how long certain mechs last in certain battles.

[Unbound Inferno]

Stelar 7, on 02 August 2013 - 09:12 AM, said:

I see no problem exploring off lore ideas. Personally I like the idea of the ghost heat fix. One of the things that bothered me about Bill's targeting computer idea is that the alpha becomes less effective by forced scatter. Your capacitor idea is fine with me by lore, we have power plants and max loads, however it handicaps everyone on the front end. It also doesn't encourage balanced builds, just staggered boating of whatever the best it allows.

The heat idea has the potential to keep alpha as a viable last resort, pinpoint alpha and then severe shutdown or heat. Action, and then consequence.

From the other angle, while it might be nice to have a time machine and redo development, cof, different game engine, whatever, those ideas detract from actually fixing things by ignoring the reality of the situation and then burry functional ideas behind their noise. Same for radical new mechanics.

Finally, the game that most resembles the books, and mwo style play, was not stock battletech. Solaris 7 used a 2.5 second round, weapon delays, linking of weapons and massive heat penalties to balance faster paced gameplay. Somewhere between cycle times, heat and armor there is a good balance for the game that will keep sniping viable, while making a good brawling push a sniper's nightmare, and a third strategy, or fourth. We seem to be close to that, at all but the highest ELO and we are doing ourselves a disservice in that bracket. I keep hearing Sirrin in the back of my head at high elo, is dual ppc Gause really op or have we embraced it and failed to play to win. I am not skilled enough, and lack data, to answer that question. So my next assault mech will be a poptart.

If that ghost heat fix did what it should have done in the first place, and not in such a lame biased way (I mean 4x LRM-10s generating twice the heat of two LRM-20s is a bad joke) IF IT WORKED WELL most of us wouldn't care and would agree with you.

Until they fix obvious judgmental errors in how its done, its not a good system as it is.

But, as you said - and if its done well - it can be a good tool.

[Unbound Inferno]

FatBabyThompkins, on 02 August 2013 - 10:00 AM, said:

I agree Stelar. I've read the many TT discussions and how balanced it is. But the argument always revolves around 10 seconds and would 10 seconds to fire be too long. What people usually do not realize is that 10 seconds has a maximum amount of damage that can be put out randomly to a mech. If you want a faster game, make it 2.5 second cycle time and quadruple armor and heat dissipation. Mechs would live relatively the same amount of time. But where the entire equation breaks down is in convergence. The damage values that were balanced around ammo and heat do not balance so well around pinpoint convergence. If you double armor to stay off pinpoint convergence, then you've made sustained DPS builds harder as they have to sustain that DPS twice as long, which in turn with movement causes the damage to spread to other doubled armor areas. Basically, it further reinforces pinpoint damage as you're sure to get a good chunk of damage to one location (regardless if that is CT/Leg/Face). This is what has happened where you've got a 1/3 cycle time of TT and doubled armor. You're actually putting out three times more damage, but on only doubled armor. You've made the sustained and spread DPS weaker while making pinpoint weapons (regardless if converged) more effective all the while with an overall reduction in survivability. Combined with pinpoint convergence, you've got a truly broken system.

I do not agree that a capacitance based system would be the savior of the game. I would say that it would help regulate the amount of damage that can be alpha'd or burst. It also puts a soft limit on sustained DPS. Ballistics could then be balanced against that system where they do more damage, but have, likely fewer, ammunition. Burst DPS of the ballistics would then naturally be higher but their sustained DPS would be lower than energy weapons. If ballistic DPS is too sustainable, move them towards a cartridge based system that allows 40 damage before a "reload" further enforcing their burst nature. AC/2 gets 20 shots, AC/5 gets 8 shots, AC/10 gets 4 shots and AC/20 gets 2 shots. Say this is your mech moving a cartridge from the legs (people still keep ammo in their legs to reload an arm mounted weapon, right?). Or instead of catridges, call it barrel heat and the system shuts down that weapon to ensure you don't warp it. Once you have a good soft cap on how much damage any mech can dish out in the short and long term, you have a way to balance how long certain mechs last in certain battles.

Well, the game's set around a 3-5 second pace depending on weapons now, but the heat system that manages it is over 10 seconds, making it a kink that kills sustainable heat DPS builds - and pushing people towards alphastrikes as you can't operate otherwise.

In theory, if heat is balanced better, but leave sniping weapons hotter, it can work out.
But PGI's last statement showed they don't care much to change it, or can't seem to grasp why changing it could be good.

Almsot as if they are afraid of an intelligent player enjoying the game...

[Krivvan]

StaIker, on 02 August 2013 - 05:33 AM, said:

Different Mechs have different roles. What you're saying is that Lights actually have a role in the main battle line against enemy Assault Mechs, rather than say providing scouting and harassment functions. And that is undoubtedly why you get killed a lot.

Lights do have a role in the main battle line against enemy assault mechs. They just don't do it my running up in front of them and firing. Harassment is a role in the main battle line.

[Stelar 7]

@FBT you misunderstand me in solaris the heat was quadrupled, but damage and armor were the same values. Some weapons could fire every round, like machine guns, others every other, some only once per four rounds. Ppc were able to fire every two, i think, but the heat was so bad it was impractical. The game even had coolant flush modules, though they took tonnage, and could explode.

If we make the changes you are suggesting we would push the meta towards sniping, just as movement based cof pushes the meta to camping. I say make beam weapons have longer cycle times, especially the big ones, ppc and ll. er versions even more cool-down. I think five seconds for a gauss. That effect can be achieved through longer cycle times, or more heat. Brawling weapons, like ac20 and smaller beams keep a quicker refresh, still have the ghost heat to keep alphas a desperation move. That way sniping works, but the delay between shots opens an opportunity to close range, up close brawlers have higher dps but must remain exposed to use it. From there tweak armor values to allow for the desired level of survivability.

UI, I agree the system values need tweaking. However the idea of the thing is good. Here is to hoping we see a more and more refined tweaking of which what heats fastest. There will be QQ no matter what they do though because someone will get their toys nerfed. For my money PGI has the best data and should have the clearest view, they need to keep up with the communication and transparency.

[BlackIronTarkus]

Roland, on 01 August 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

The phrasing of the poll is kind of weird.

If you are outnumbered 4 to 1, that fight is gonna end real fast... but not because "only a few shots were fired".

The fight will end quickly because 4 mechs can fire a TON of shots in a short period of time.

I agree, that topic deserve to be remade, the poll is confusing to say the least.

[Unbound Inferno]

Stelar 7, on 02 August 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

@FBT you misunderstand me in solaris the heat was quadrupled, but damage and armor were the same values. Some weapons could fire every round, like machine guns, others every other, some only once per four rounds. Ppc were able to fire every two, i think, but the heat was so bad it was impractical. The game even had coolant flush modules, though they took tonnage, and could explode.

If we make the changes you are suggesting we would push the meta towards sniping, just as movement based cof pushes the meta to camping. I say make beam weapons have longer cycle times, especially the big ones, ppc and ll. er versions even more cool-down. I think five seconds for a gauss. That effect can be achieved through longer cycle times, or more heat. Brawling weapons, like ac20 and smaller beams keep a quicker refresh, still have the ghost heat to keep alphas a desperation move. That way sniping works, but the delay between shots opens an opportunity to close range, up close brawlers have higher dps but must remain exposed to use it. From there tweak armor values to allow for the desired level of survivability.

UI, I agree the system values need tweaking. However the idea of the thing is good. Here is to hoping we see a more and more refined tweaking of which what heats fastest. There will be QQ no matter what they do though because someone will get their toys nerfed. For my money PGI has the best data and should have the clearest view, they need to keep up with the communication and transparency.

I wouldn't say the idea is good (better to just man up and increase base heat levels in my opinion) but I agree it can be made to work.

Right now, it doesn't - and unless they make serious changes to some of it, it won't.

BlackIronTarkus, on 02 August 2013 - 01:03 PM, said:

I agree, that topic deserve to be remade, the poll is confusing to say the least.

I'll work on rephrasing what I meant. Sometime,

[Psikez]

Fairly sure those LRM 20s aren't for scouting and fighting infantry, I COULD BE WRONG THOUGH

[StaIker]

Try this thought experiment.

You're on a fairly open map with a good load of long range firepower. An enemy Mech is on the far side of the field, he is about the same weight and has a heavy load of short range firepower. Now the only thing stopping him from getting to you is the threat of damage and death as he closes the distance. But once he gets close, he is going to beat you down.

So given that, how long should it take you to kill him once he starts rushing? At 70kph he is closing at about 20 meters per second. The time is takes for him to get from 700m (your ideal range) to 200m (his ideal range) is 25 seconds. If he is not dead by then, or almost dead, you will be. If it takes longer than 25 seconds to kill him, then congratulations, you have just made all long range weapons useless as they cannot kill a rushing target before it closes into lethal range. In fact, it has to take considerably less than 25 seconds because you may miss some shots, or he may have cover that lets him get closer than 700m before he has to cross open ground.

This is the key consideration for determining the balance between armor and firepower.

[Stelar 7]

Base heat levels won't be punative so if the aim is to limit how many of x weapon can be fired at once they don't stop the alpha, the ghost heat does, or at least offers a consequence beyond the base heat. W could have a situation. Where a 4ppc stalker is fine. And az single ppc becomes unmanagable for a comando.

[Volomon]

This whole thread is a bit silly isn't it. I mean doesn't skill come in as a factor? How can you give a diminutive number be speculated as a known constant?

This question asks us to pretend there is no human component.

The vote of this is silly was not an option. You would have to post the question in a better method.

[Unbound Inferno]

Volomon, on 02 August 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

This whole thread is a bit silly isn't it. I mean doesn't skill come in as a factor? How can you give a diminutive number be speculated as a known constant?

This question asks us to pretend there is no human component.

The vote of this is silly was not an option. You would have to post the question in a better method.

Optimistically hoping for a fair fight between equally skilled opponents. I know, it doesn't happen with ELO, but I can wish.

[MyszTrap]

StaIker, on 02 August 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

Try this thought experiment.

You're on a fairly open map with a good load of long range firepower. An enemy Mech is on the far side of the field, he is about the same weight and has a heavy load of short range firepower. Now the only thing stopping him from getting to you is the threat of damage and death as he closes the distance. But once he gets close, he is going to beat you down.

So given that, how long should it take you to kill him once he starts rushing? At 70kph he is closing at about 20 meters per second. The time is takes for him to get from 700m (your ideal range) to 200m (his ideal range) is 25 seconds. If he is not dead by then, or almost dead, you will be. If it takes longer than 25 seconds to kill him, then congratulations, you have just made all long range weapons useless as they cannot kill a rushing target before it closes into lethal range. In fact, it has to take considerably less than 25 seconds because you may miss some shots, or he may have cover that lets him get closer than 700m before he has to cross open ground.

This is the key consideration for determining the balance between armor and firepower.

The only problem with this, that other than LRMs, the 'long range' weapons are just as effective up close as they at long range. So if the long range mech does not kill the brawling mech before he gets to him, but has put a major hurt on him, the long range mech is still going to win with the current state of the game. Which is something that really needs to be changed imo...

[StaIker]

The firepower advantage of short range weapons over long is what redresses the balance once the rushing Mech gets into range. He can afford to absorb some damage so long as he is not on death door when he gets in range for his own guns. He should rapidly overcome the LR Mech just with the weight of damage he can throw. But if you screw around with survivability so that the damage he absorbs is fairly minor, or is an insufficient threat, then rushing will become the only viable tactic in the future. No one will use LR weapons if they cannot actually generate kills before the SR Mech closes the distance.

[Koniving]

These fights would simply last longer, if we couldn't alpha as much. We wouldn't be able to alpha as much if our capacities (limit of heat til shutdown) didn't go as high as 88.56 (Victor, 27 DHS) and average in the late 70s after elites, or mid 60s without unlocks. The current minimum limit is 40. A DHS mech has between 46 to 50 minimum depending on the size of your engine.

Honestly I think if we cut our capacity (max heat threshold) down to 30 or 40, and then upped the DHS cooling after 10 to be 0.06 higher per heatsink, we'd solve a lot of our balance issues, slow down battles, and genuinely have a much richer experience.

For more: Take a peek at the second link in my sig and go to page 4 after reading the original post.

Volomon, on 02 August 2013 - 05:32 PM, said:

This whole thread is a bit silly isn't it. I mean doesn't skill come in as a factor? How can you give a diminutive number be speculated as a known constant?

This question asks us to pretend there is no human component.

The vote of this is silly was not an option. You would have to post the question in a better method.

I agree the original post is a bit awkward. Personally I would have stated "If we remove the high damage in single shot builds, do you think the fights would last longer?"

Edited by Koniving, 02 August 2013 - 06:31 PM.