18 replies to this topic

[boddole]

I just got a cat a1, then realized the build I wanted wasn't quite going to work out. So I was wondering if getting a cat c4 with tag would be worth grinding towards (or maybe making a new account and using cadet to grind).

Basically- is TAG on a lrm mech really a difference maker? Or does it only become useful "every so often"?

[Stomp]

The A1 has qualities all it's own which make it fun to play with, I think you should keep it a bit longer. You don't need to commit with Artemis on an A1, since you can't get a full bonus without TAG as well, (my reasoning being why use two tons when it still won't be as good) so instead focus on building something fun. I recommend 2 LRM 15s w/o Artemis, with 4/5 tons of ammo, and 4 streaks, which I believe is 6 tons, and a couple tons for those as well. Don't forget Beagle Active Probe! Now put a fast STD engine in, and you're good to go! You have a fast, reactionary Battlemech that can defend itself against lights, while still putting forth damage for a team's advance against the enemy. Hope this helps! The C4 is also worth a bit, it's fun as well.

[Typatty]

it's useful, but having 2 lrm 15 and 4 ssrm2 on an A1 is more useful than a Catapult with LRMs and tag.

[Nebelfeuer]

Since you will eventuall yneed 3 differend CATs to unlock the elite tree you should keep your acount and your mech. the suggested builds are not bad - personally I prefer the C4 with 2xLRM15(artemis)+2xSSRM2+1xML+1xTAG as my final loadout but that is a matter of taste I guess.

Edited by Nebelfeuer, 15 July 2013 - 05:20 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Stomp, on 15 July 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

The A1 has qualities all it's own which make it fun to play with, I think you should keep it a bit longer. You don't need to commit with Artemis on an A1, since you can't get a full bonus without TAG as well, (my reasoning being why use two tons when it still won't be as good) so instead focus on building something fun. I recommend 2 LRM 15s w/o Artemis, with 4/5 tons of ammo, and 4 streaks, which I believe is 6 tons, and a couple tons for those as well. Don't forget Beagle Active Probe! Now put a fast STD engine in, and you're good to go! You have a fast, reactionary Battlemech that can defend itself against lights, while still putting forth damage for a team's advance against the enemy. Hope this helps! The C4 is also worth a bit, it's fun as well.

Bad recommendations all around. Right now, the LRM/5 and LRM/10 have major grouping advantages over the 15 & 20. Major. You want to be running them combined with TAG whenever possible and you always, always, always want Artemis if you have more than 15 missiles (and you should always have more than 15 missiles or you're AMS bait!)

The A1 might get away not having TAG because of it's ability to mount 6x LRM/5 with Artemis. However, in just about every other case, you always want to be running TAG.

If you want some fun LRM 'mechs, skip the heavies and assaults entirely. They're too easy to range bracket and screw over. Pick up a high speed medium like the Treb 7M or Cent 9D. The 7M might be a better be right now, but tradiontally the 9D with twin 15s and TAG was the way to go, but I have been opting more towards the treb running 1x TAG 2x LRM10 1x LRM5 in the Narc Port (this screws AMS over badly, as well) for really precise, rapid LRM hits. That way you can scoot around the battlefield at high speed, using a single jump jet to maintain locks while going in different directions, keeping yourself always in optimal (270-750 ; 170 minimum) range.

Edited by Victor Morson, 15 July 2013 - 05:29 PM.

[boddole]

Lots of interesting ideas

-Don't know how I feel about the "you have to buy mechs you don't want and then play mechs you don't want to upgrade the mech you do want" thing

-When you say "major" grouping advantages on 5's and 10's over 15s and 20s, what are we talking? Say you fired a lrm 20, how many do you expect to hit vs. firing a lrm 10?

-If the grouping advantage is so great, do you still need artemis?

[Amsro]

I can't recommend ever selling a mech.

[Stomp]

The problem with LRM5 and LRM10s though is that they are much smaller groups of missiles... much more vulnerable to AMS. 1 AMS will shoot an entire volley of 1 LRM5. 2 LRM 5s will be cut in half, simply by one AMS.

[XphR]

Victor Morson, on 15 July 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

... ...
2x LRM10 1x LRM5 in the Narc Port
... ...

I sold my Treb, just could not get comfortable in the cockpit.. but, I have many fond memories of sending LDKs (Death kite pattern) skyward. The occasional tail missile kill needs obligatory three sixties to finish off celebrations.

[Y2kHippy]

I have no idea how you can think the Cat A1 is useless. I personally own three of them because they fill three roles incredibly well and it costs to much to change the configurations.

First - Streak Cat = 6xSSRM2 + BAP
Second - Splat Cat = 6xSRM6 (can also be done with SRM4+Artemis)
Third - LRM Suppression = 6xLRM5 + 2,700 rounds of ammunition to constantly fire suppress the enemy on chain-fire mode

The Splat Cat is a very high Alpha Damage which is bugged in a way that it is not transferring well but the damage is about to be raised in a patch.

The LRM Suppression Mech is made to fire on chain fire most of the time to keep the enemy heads behind cover. As soon as even a poor lock is on a target you start firing to make sure he knows he is in danger. Assault Mechs require a larger hit and you swap to Group Fire for these.

[Konril]

Keep the A1. Grind for the C4 on the same account.

You need to purchase the basic efficiencies for 3 variants of the same chasis to unlock the elite (and eventually master) efficiencies. While the basics don't seem to do much by themselves, their bonuses double after you have all four elite efficiencies. Things like 10% better top speed (an elite) or 15% extra cooling (7.5% basic with double bonus) are really very helpful. The XP you are building now in the A1 is going to be really helpful when you are in better shape to buy the C4. You should probably already be planning to also have either the C1 or the K2 in your inventory at some point too. But that is going to take some time.

Is TAG on an LRM mech a difference maker? The short answer is "every so often." However the situation is potentially very frustrating when it does come up.

ECM prevents cloaked mechs from even being targeted farther than 200 (or 250 with Advanced Sensors) meters away. Given that LRMs have a 180m minimum range and are slow enough to take anywhere from 2 to 8 seconds to reach their target (travelling 120m/s) it can be almost impossible to hit even a slow moving target when the enemy has an ECM available. That is, unless that ECM is countered.

TAG acts like a highly focused 750m range ECM resistant sensor. As long as the TAG unit can hit the target, the target then becomes "tagged" and will be visible to the sensors of the unit using the TAG. When the tagging unit actually targets the cloaked enemy (press 'R') the standard spotting system kicks in and the enemy will be visible to the radar and targeting systems of everyone on your team and everyone with guided missile systems can then use them on the tagged target with the TAG bonuses. This is the first and used to be the most common way to counter ECM.

PPC users can actually do something similar. Getting hit with a PPC will shut down an ECM for about 4 seconds. That's not a lot of time with the speed LRMs travel and the time it takes to actually get a lock once the enemy is targetable. However two PPCs continuously chain fired (or fired from two different units) can be enough for LRM users to actually have a chance of hitting. This may be the most common ECM counter out there because of how popular PPCs are for sniping. But it may not be the most reliable.

Beagle Active Probes now actively counter ECM as well. The range is short, only 150m. So it really isn't directly helpful on the LRM boat itself. However, if you have someone on your team that uses Streak SRMs and a beagle probe to keep those streaks from being countered by ECM, then you can buddy up with that person and go on a killing spree by following that teammate at a moderate distance and just shooting what he shoots. As long as as the enemy doesn't get close enough to directly jam your missiles with ECM, your buddy's beagle probe will do just as good a job of helping you lock on as it does for helping him lock on.

So that's the deal. You can live without TAG on your mech as long as someone else on your team has brought a tag or other appropriate ECM counter measures. But if you're PUGging frequently, you can't always count on your teammates to have what you need. (Or even know how to use that 'R' button, but that may be a rant for another time.) For a pure LRM boat, that TAG is only occasionally useful, in the sense that it keeps the "occasional" ECM equipped AS7-D-DC from making your LRM boat into 65 tons of dead weight.

Either way, you are still going to want something that can shoot at light or medium mechs that get under that 180 minimum range. So even with the C4, I recommend putting a couple of Streak SRM 2 launchers and a beagle probe under your 2 main LRM launchers. The 4 streak and 2 LRM 15 A1 is actually a really good idea. A light that gets under your LRM minimum range wouldn't be in a position to dodge the Streaks, and at the same time becomes very vulnerable to fire from your allies. Especially when your allies also have LRMs to use.

Clear as mud?

[Redshift2k5]

boddole, on 15 July 2013 - 05:54 PM, said:

-Don't know how I feel about the "you have to buy mechs you don't want and then play mechs you don't want to upgrade the mech you do want" thing

I think overall it's a good thing. It leads to more diversity of mechs on the field since you need to play your "second stringers" for periods through the basic tier and elite tier, and it can force you to experiment with builds which is fun in it's own way!

It also extends the "play experience", instead of buying 1 mech and never having to buy or skill-up another one ever again, which would be done in a couple days, you need to save for two more mechs, skill them up, etc. It adds individual goals and progress. If we did not have to buy multiples then we'd lose out on progressing, and the actual match-based gameplay would be a bit blander without a goal to work towards!

If you look at is as "I don't want this mech, why are they forcing me to play it" you're putting it into an unfavorable light.. But use it an an opportunity to learn new weapon types or new builds.

That being said, you should research what kind of builds your alternate variants are capable of. All mechs have their uses, but not every player will like every weapon type or playstyle. We have lot of resources and a helpful community to help you research your next mech purchase!

[EyeDie I]

im new, i leveled 3 catapults to elite and i think tag was really good, to the point that i wondered should everyone have a tag even if they didnt have missles, till i dropped into a predator movie and saw 5 tags on me.

[Y2kHippy]

An organised team may have two fast Mechs with Tag feeding targeting information via voice coms also to one or two dedicated LRM Mechs. This takes practice and coordination. Tag in of itself is not great on ALL of your team because you need players to keep the target locked for as long as possible and this takes practice and communication. Some times when playing with only public players and I have Tag on my Mech I will ask if there is any LRM's on my team. If there is I dedication myself to spotting/TAGing, If not I just do my usual thing.

Edited by Y2kHippy, 16 July 2013 - 05:47 PM.

[mailin]

Konril, on 15 July 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Beagle Active Probes now actively counter ECM as well. The range is short, only 150m. So it really isn't directly helpful on the LRM boat itself. However, if you have someone on your team that uses Streak SRMs and a beagle probe to keep those streaks from being countered by ECM, then you can buddy up with that person and go on a killing spree by following that teammate at a moderate distance and just shooting what he shoots. As long as as the enemy doesn't get close enough to directly jam your missiles with ECM, your buddy's beagle probe will do just as good a job of helping you lock on as it does for helping him lock on.

Sorry, but I have to disagree that BAP isn't helpful on an lrm boat. It is important to remember that ECM when in range will make you lose your lrm locks on your targets. By having a BAP you can keep your lrm locks and maintain fire if you so choose. More importantly though, if an ECM mech comes within range of your BAP, you can target him by pressing R, and then there is a much greater chance that your friendlies will show the ECM pest some lrm love too. Combine BAP with a TAG and it's every Raven 3L pilot's worst nightmare. I honestly can't tell you how many times BAP and TAG have saved my bacon while I was piloting an lrm boat.

Also, it's important to remember that there is the TAG xp bonus, which really adds up.

[Rascula]

EyeDie I, on 16 July 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

im new, i leveled 3 catapults to elite and i think tag was really good, to the point that i wondered should everyone have a tag even if they didnt have missles, till i dropped into a predator movie and saw 5 tags on me.

Tag is an excellent way to make friends with your LRM <And SSRM on occasion> totting team mates. It can <and regularly does> make the difference in winning and losing, especially if your enemy is bringing a lot of ECM to the field.
That said dont drop weapons to fit one unless you have the spare weight but if you can spare the space you'll be helping out your team, and thats never a bad thing in MWO.

[EyeDie I]

i was in a lrm cat and got into a close fight but kept the opponent tagged, and my team killed him and saved my life.i am still amaqzed i survived.

Edited by EyeDie I, 01 August 2013 - 07:57 AM.

[Mawai]

Amsro, on 15 July 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

I can't recommend ever selling a mech.

I can

If you have mechs that you detest and never want to play they are taking up a mech bay that costs real money to purchase. I sold a Commando-2D and Dragon-1C since I never wanted to play either chassis again. In addition, the only variant of the Cicada and the Spider that I wanted to keep were the 3M and 5D ECM versions. So once I had leveled the other variants to basic I sold them off too since I did not expect to be playing them again.

On the other hand, for mechs that you enjoy playing, it is worth hanging on to all the variants you buy. I now have 4 Jenners (Sarah's being the 4th), 3 Hunchbacks, 3 Catapults and 3 Stalkers.

If play time is limited then you can consider purchasing premium since it will increase the cbills and xp you earn during the time you can play. I spent a chunk of my founders MC on premium time.

Finally, if you find some mechs that you just enjoy playing then cbills wont be much of an issue since you will earn them by playing and you are enjoying playing because of your choice of mech. Grinding out xp in a mech also generally works for mediums and lights since in the time it takes to finish a tier you have usually earned almost enough to purchase the next mech. This is not true for heavies and assaults. However, the earnings made while working to elite and possibly master three variants of the same chassis will usually generate enough cbills for a few more mech purchases.

Edited by Mawai, 01 August 2013 - 08:16 AM.

[Bront]

The A1 is a good Splatcat built (SRMs and/or SSRMs), but I find TAG to be highly useful. That said, I'd just grind it out with that mech, and skip one of the C models instead (The K2 is fairly unique, the C1 and C4 are different, but not incredibly so).

When you're done elliting the chassis, then you can sell it if you don't like it.