138 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

I feel that out of game macros should be considered bad for the game. I've been seeing more and more of these 3rd party programs in the game as of late, particularly in the instances of 4-5 AC2 Jagermechs. I don't feel it's right when they get to shoot faster than the sound card can create the sounds of their gun shooting. They are spamming shots faster than the game normally permits in chain fire mode, and I can't even begin to replicate it with my old mouse and finger pushing.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, I'm referring to the rapid fire issue with chain fired AC2s in some quantity that have been happening on some mechs. 5 AC2s shouldn't strip the armor off my mech with a glance because the person has an out of game program making a single button press of his mouse be repeated x number of times a second. They should be left to manual speeds or with the same refire rate as chain fire, like the rest of us.

The bigger problem I see is that PGI has stated that they intend to let this continue. It breaks the intent of the game, even the lore of the game. AC2s, though fast reloading, wasn't meant to be a chain fired machine gun of death. With the macro they are shooting faster than is humanly possible to even try to replicate and when used against you it just feels unfair and feels like the other person is cheating.

I feel that 3rd party programs that can control some portion of the game outside of human interaction should not be permitted. Voice comms is fine and not in any way related to this.

Mostly, I'm posting this asking, what are your feelings on this subject? If you know what I'm talking about, how do you feel it is in the game?

As a side note, I do know they pay for it in high heat generation and ammo consumption, but fighting against someone using this macro still doesn't seem right. Same applies to the Macro to help time your UAC5 shots so they never (rarely?) jam.


Edit: I would like to note that I have been convinced that Macros aren't a problem, but I still feel that if it's to be permitted into the game, then it should be placed into the game and not made possible only by a 3rd party program. Basically, if Macros are okay, put a new feature it that lets us create macros, or change chain fire so we can determine when it fires the next shot.

Edited by Tesunie, 30 July 2013 - 02:17 PM.

[Druidika]

Using a macro doesn't make the gun fire any faster. There is no way to circumvent the refire rate.

[JingleHell]

You can duplicate this effect by using multiple groups for your AC2s and holding down multiple buttons simultaneously. I have a friend who I know isn't automating doing exactly that, with plenty of success.

[Kitane]

AC2 macro doesn't shoot bullets faster than what you can do by holding the fire button down, the macro is just "for fun" effect for dakka-lovers.

[Team Leader]

You're actually better off damage wise shooting all the AC2s at once. It's a fact. You also dont spread out your damage with each shot. So just because it makes a lot of noise and smoke doesn't mean macros are the untimate weapon.

[Tesunie]

Druidika, on 29 July 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Using a macro doesn't make the gun fire any faster. There is no way to circumvent the refire rate.

It does, however, circumvent the chain fire timing (0.5 seconds before it shoots the next weapon I believe) and can make a bunch of AC2s fire faster than the chain fire will normally fire for just pressing and holding the fire button down. You can manually (which is what their macro is doing beyond human speeds) fire the next weapon in the chain fire chain by pressing the button again, instead of holding down the button. However, the issue is that the Macro will press the button so fast that as soon as the next weapon can fire, it will. With the macro, you are literally shooting the next weapon in the chain as soon as it's cool off is done. With 4-5 AC2s, that means it shoots continuously as by the time 3(ish) of the AC2s shoot, the first weapon in the loop is cooled off and ready to fire again.

The issue isn't overcoming the chain fire auto slow down, it's being able to press the button faster than is humanly possible because you are using a 3rd party program that lets you do this. Same goes with UAC5, where if you use the macro to press the fire button only after x amount of time has passed can make you fire faster than a standard UAC5 while at the same time never jamming by "double tapping", as it waits till the fraction of whatever second of double tap risk is gone.

I feel these macros give some players an artificial edge in the game and I feel it's breaking the intent and fun of the game. However, I'm only wishing to present this information on the forums and just wonder what other people feel about the use of such programs. Are you for them? Don't care about them? Do you hate them? Do you feel that it rewards a player for looking for software that helps improve their games? How do you consider this any different from a bot program that controls your movement or aiming? (I'm not saying here that I consider it in the same category as an aim bot or movement bot, but I do think it's a form of botting, but that's my opinion.)

[JingleHell]

Tesunie, on 29 July 2013 - 08:42 AM, said:

It does, however, circumvent the chain fire timing (0.5 seconds before it shoots the next weapon I believe) and can make a bunch of AC2s fire faster than the chain fire will normally fire for just pressing and holding the fire button down. You can manually (which is what their macro is doing beyond human speeds) fire the next weapon in the chain fire chain by pressing the button again, instead of holding down the button. However, the issue is that the Macro will press the button so fast that as soon as the next weapon can fire, it will. With the macro, you are literally shooting the next weapon in the chain as soon as it's cool off is done. With 4-5 AC2s, that means it shoots continuously as by the time 3(ish) of the AC2s shoot, the first weapon in the loop is cooled off and ready to fire again.

The issue isn't overcoming the chain fire auto slow down, it's being able to press the button faster than is humanly possible because you are using a 3rd party program that lets you do this. Same goes with UAC5, where if you use the macro to press the fire button only after x amount of time has passed can make you fire faster than a standard UAC5 while at the same time never jamming by "double tapping", as it waits till the fraction of whatever second of double tap risk is gone.

I feel these macros give some players an artificial edge in the game and I feel it's breaking the intent and fun of the game. However, I'm only wishing to present this information on the forums and just wonder what other people feel about the use of such programs. Are you for them? Don't care about them? Do you hate them? Do you feel that it rewards a player for looking for software that helps improve their games? How do you consider this any different from a bot program that controls your movement or aiming? (I'm not saying here that I consider it in the same category as an aim bot or movement bot, but I do think it's a form of botting, but that's my opinion.)

You're the one missing the point. Chainfire is worse than manually firing off multiple weapons because it's easy mode. There's ways to do it manually that are JUST AS GOOD as any macro, and, in fact, you could be mistaking one of these manual methods for a macro.

You're automatically assuming cheaters, instead of looking for ways that you could be getting legitimately outplayed.

[Tesunie]

Team Leader, on 29 July 2013 - 08:34 AM, said:

You're actually better off damage wise shooting all the AC2s at once. It's a fact. You also dont spread out your damage with each shot. So just because it makes a lot of noise and smoke doesn't mean macros are the untimate weapon.

I've had a Jager with the macro shoot for a breif second on my Jenner, and he almost killed me in a fraction of a second. He had better leading with the macro than a burst would have had. It doesn't make the ultimate weapon out of the AC2s, but it does give them an artificial edge they normally wouldn't have had. They gain the effects of how a laser can be lead into a target, or can be used to splash damage across a faster moving mech's armor, except they are causing 2 damage per "click" that they are on the mech.

There is a reason I want other people's opinions on this matter. I've played against it and it just didn't feel good. It felt like it was borderline cheating to me. And, no, this isn't a "this killed me so I want to complain about it" thread. I literally want to know what other people feel about this subject. I feel it's like having a bot control your shooting, but you still have to move and aim.

[JingleHell]

Tesunie, on 29 July 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

. I feel it's like having a bot control your shooting, but you still have to move and aim.

So nothing like that.

[Tesunie]

JingleHell, on 29 July 2013 - 08:46 AM, said:

You're the one missing the point. Chainfire is worse than manually firing off multiple weapons because it's easy mode. There's ways to do it manually that are JUST AS GOOD as any macro, and, in fact, you could be mistaking one of these manual methods for a macro.

You're automatically assuming cheaters, instead of looking for ways that you could be getting legitimately outplayed.

I haven't been able to set up my Jager with any form of chain fire that could shoot faster than the sound graphic could create the sound loop. I did it in sets, I did it as one chain. I know a macro when I see one, as it was continuous fire.

And actually... I wasn't out played. I ended up killing him as he kept overheating and splitting his fire between me and other people. AC2s run hot, as I know from my own use of them.

I'm asking what others feel about these macros in use. If there is a manual way to replicate this continuous fire of shots at such a high rate manually, I do not know about it. Are there any videos showing this manual rapid fire of chained AC2s? I always just tried pressing the button faster than the chain fire automatically did when holding the button down, but was a lot slower than what I've been seeing.

(PS: I'm not calling anyone a cheater. I'm just questioning if the Macros should be considered fair play or not, and asking the community how they feel on the subject. I'm not even saying "if you don't agree with me, then you are wrong", even if you are . I'm wondering what my fellow mechwarriors feel on this subject. I don't mind if you feel it's okay and completely legit for game use.)

[PanzerMagier]

Tesunie, on 29 July 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

I feel that out of game macros should be considered bad for the game. I've been seeing more and more of these 3rd party programs in the game as of late, particularly in the instances of 4-5 AC2 Jagermechs. I don't feel it's right when they get to shoot faster than the sound card can create the sounds of their gun shooting. They are spamming shots faster than the game normally permits in chain fire mode, and I can't even begin to replicate it with my old mouse and finger pushing.

For those who don't know what I'm talking about, I'm referring to the rapid fire issue with chain fired AC2s in some quantity that have been happening on some mechs. 5 AC2s shouldn't strip the armor off my mech with a glance because the person has an out of game program making a single button press of his mouse be repeated x number of times a second. They should be left to manual speeds or with the same refire rate as chain fire, like the rest of us.

The bigger problem I see is that PGI has stated that they intend to let this continue. It breaks the intent of the game, even the lore of the game. AC2s, though fast reloading, wasn't meant to be a chain fired machine gun of death. With the macro they are shooting faster than is humanly possible to even try to replicate and when used against you it just feels unfair and feels like the other person is cheating.

I feel that 3rd party programs that can control some portion of the game outside of human interaction should not be permitted. Voice comms is fine and not in any way related to this.

Mostly, I'm posting this asking, what are your feelings on this subject? If you know what I'm talking about, how do you feel it is in the game?

As a side note, I do know they pay for it in high heat generation and ammo consumption, but fighting against someone using this macro still doesn't seem right. Same applies to the Macro to help time your UAC5 shots so they never (rarely?) jam.

A.) We've had this discussion many times, it's permitted, the devs had said and it's done. A simple bloody search on the forums would do.
B.) Macro chain fire CANNOT "make" your ac 2's fire "faster" than it possible ingame.
C.) you can replicate this effect by placing all your ac2's in 2 fire groups, pressing the buttons at 0.4 second interval, holding them down and then hold the alpha strike button. Your ac2's will fire in a rhythmic pattern. Just not as mathematically perfect as macro's.
D.)The macros can be downloaded online for free, you don't need any extra hardware to use it.
E.) play a quad ac2 jager/cataphract your self. They're extremely difficult to use, ac2's weigh a lot, consume ammo too fast and generate ridiculous amounts of heat.

Now please, shut up OP and stop mongering your ignorance on others.

[Kunae]

It's the same or less dps than when group-firing. What's the problem?

[Tesunie]

JingleHell, on 29 July 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

So nothing like that.

Just calling it how it feels like to me. Chain fire is a press and hold the button while you aim that's built into the game. A macro is the same kinda thing, but uses out of game programs to time shots in a more favorable manner for your weapons, whatever this timing might be for you. I feel it provides an artificial edge to players using this out of game program.

It isn't like the out of game chats, which are only really standing in for a feature that is intended for the game and just not back into the game yet. It's a chain fire mechanic that isn't supported in game and was never intended to be included into the game.

If it provides no real bonuses as some of you are telling me, then why don't we petition PGI to let us change the time spacing of Chain fire mode through in game options? Wouldn't that be a more fair route to go, as now the feature becomes available to every player of the game?

[Kunae]

Tesunie, on 29 July 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

Just calling it how it feels like to me. Chain fire is a press and hold the button while you aim that's built into the game. A macro is the same kinda thing, but uses out of game programs to time shots in a more favorable manner for your weapons, whatever this timing might be for you. I feel it provides an artificial edge to players using this out of game program.

It isn't like the out of game chats, which are only really standing in for a feature that is intended for the game and just not back into the game yet. It's a chain fire mechanic that isn't supported in game and was never intended to be included into the game.

If it provides no real bonuses as some of you are telling me, then why don't we petition PGI to let us change the time spacing of Chain fire mode through in game options? Wouldn't that be a more fair route to go, as now the feature becomes available to every player of the game?

It has no real bonus.

We have asked them for that, and it's yet another of those things that are way too complex to code, for their wee little brains.

[Druidika]

"Hey guys, some people have a surround system, I only have stereo speakers and I don't want to change (download macro for free).

Disable surround sound!"

Replace sound system with multiple monitors, mice with many buttons, or any other thing that one could perceive to give an advantage.

The macro argument is silly because it's something that everyone can do for free.

[Mystere]

I can easily manually chain fire weapons just by using a G13 and mapping keys accordingly. And as a bonus, I can manually change my firing rhythm. There is no need for macros.

Tesunie, on 29 July 2013 - 08:29 AM, said:

I do know they pay for it in high heat generation and ammo consumption ...

And as you have already noted, there is a downside to rapidly chain firing one's weapons.


Finally, PGI allows macros. That should be the end of the story.

Edited by Mystere, 29 July 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[WALD]

The effect it has on the target is detrimental, and I'm not referring to damage output. The rounds explode on impact and make it very difficult to maintain visual on a target due to the non-stop explosions. If an AC/2 spammer keeps hitting you center mass you really can't fight back at 100% because your shots now aren't going to hit where you want or at all. To me that is the main issue. I can deal with the damage output against me but the ability to essentially blind me with the higher than normal rate of fire is just too much.

[Tesunie]

PanzerMagier, on 29 July 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

A.) We've had this discussion many times, it's permitted, the devs had said and it's done. A simple bloody search on the forums would do.
B.) Macro chain fire CANNOT "make" your ac 2's fire "faster" than it possible ingame.
C.) you can replicate this effect by placing all your ac2's in 2 fire groups, pressing the buttons at 0.4 second interval, holding them down and then hold the alpha strike button. Your ac2's will fire in a rhythmic pattern. Just not as mathematically perfect as macro's.
D.)The macros can be downloaded online for free, you don't need any extra hardware to use it.
E.) play a quad ac2 jager/cataphract your self. They're extremely difficult to use, ac2's weigh a lot, consume ammo too fast and generate ridiculous amounts of heat.

Now please, shut up OP and stop mongering your ignorance on others.

How about you provide your feelings on the subject, instead of being rude? I'm asking "how does it feel to you?" "What's your opinion on this?" I'm not asking for any changes, nor am I saying it's cheating. I'm stating, as I've asked you and everyone else, what my own feelings are on the subject.

Shall I put you down as "It's okay because PGI said it's okay"? Or do you have any personal feelings on the matter that might be counter to what PGI says, even if you know it wont change?

And yes, I know it's been discussed before. Guess what I mentioned that I know PGI has said it's okay in my original post? I'm asking for opinions is all. Not for things to be regurgitated from another thread back at me about what PGI said on the matter.

Kunae, on 29 July 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

It's the same or less dps than when group-firing. What's the problem?

Leading? It permits you to lead into your targets, like a laser, without the slower/lower damage tick and beam duration of the laser. And a macro would be programed to give the same DPS as group firing them, just with a small spacing between the shots.

I feel these weapons where never intended to be used in such a manner. If they where, they would have been burst fired versions of the AC instead of single slug shot versions.

However, what are your feelings on this subject? Do you feel they aren't a problem? What, despite what PGI has said, do you think about this? Do you feel Macros give no benefit that couldn't be gained through a manual way already programed in the game (or intended to be added into the game)?

[FupDup]

Ultimate solution: add in an extra firing mode that is a variation of chain-fire, but without the 0.5 second delay. Or, maybe even allow the player to set the firing delay themselves from the mechlab.

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Chain fring AC2s isn't the issue. The issue is being hit with 16-20 DPS. Every second you are being shot you are taking 20 damage (in the case of 5x AC2).

If you want to figure out how powerful that is, get on smurfy's and start stacking weapons and see what it takes to get to 20 DPS. (hint: it is a lot more than 9 medium lasers, more than 6 PPCs, and double 2x AC20)

I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with AC2, I am just pointing out that the reason they wrecks mechs has nothing to do with a 3rd party macro.