13 replies to this topic

[Donnie Silveray]

From what I've seen there's a lot that can be possibly improved upon if 3PV is going to be kept for good. Going to keep this snappy:

1) Segregate the queues. Until there is no definite advantage to using 3rd person over 1st, there should be no view switching. Switching may be implemented when the below is accomplished. 3PV only has minimap and all UI restored.

2) Strictly enforce no peeking. The camera should rather vehomently refuse to allow the player to peek. Think Splinter Cell, the camera will not peek a corner until Sam physically peeks. Similarly the camera in MWO must lower itself when it detects that there's a rock in front of the cockpit but the camera can see above it. Likewise the camera should aggressively close in when such peeking tactics are performed. The camera will not shuffle a great deal when there is a mech blocking the view. When huddled closely to a rock, the camera may even move in front of the mech cockpit and show no body at all.
This is difficult and will require lots of work and testing, but I am sure it can be done in a smooth enough manner.

3) Camera should have a reduced FOV compared to 1st person and be adjusted dynamically per the user's FOV setting. This will require a good bit of math and testing but it can be doable to prevent the increased FOV from gaining an advantage by effectively matching what is seen in the cockpit in all but the most extreme of circumstance.

4) -optional- Zooming in will change the camera's position from overhead to the side if room permits. Aside from avoiding the top of tall mechs, this view is to drill down the point that you are essentially looking down boresight, not a periscope. This is to prevent using zoom to better spot targets from under cover. If 2) 's requirements are not met, the zoom will not activate. You cannot use the zoom if you're behind cover and near a corner as your cockpit is basically obscured. Or the view may activate and a UI indicates you are ready to zoom but due to space constraints you cannot. Upon leaving cover your zoom activates.

5) Above permits, integrated into mixed queue. If advantages still persist, camera drone will be present. Upon being shot the camera will be destroyed and returned to a 1st person view for 10-20 seconds or more. Module slot is available to reduce recharge time for a destroyed camera for several uses in a battle, but still limited. Possibly 2-3 uses. However if the above is accomplished and no true advantage or disadvantage is made, then the camera drone may be removed.

-Conclusion-
Several of these steps will be extremely challenging to perform as it'd require either all maps to have what is essentially a Nav-pass to tell the camera where/when it can move around or one really smart camera that dynamically does all this without adjusting maps. But once adjustments are made in whole, then it is very possible that 3PV will be no better than 1PV and may be a fun alternative for some players. However it still stands that unless significant changes are made, either 3PV must be restricted to its own queue with no view switching at all, or removed wholesale. All Devs must decide if a feature must be scrapped for the greater good. If 3PV doesn't pan out, I expect it to be cut and soon.

I am an advocate of game devs doing what they can to make the game a more enjoyable experience in the end, 3PV 1PV regardless. If it works well and is fun, then it's good. If not, it gets cut. If a feature proves too difficult or causes trouble, it gets cut. No questions asked. By implementing 3PV the devs have committed to a rough work pass and must now decide if this is worth it as time goes on and development proceeds.

Edited by Donnie Silveray, 02 August 2013 - 07:01 AM.

[Flying Blind]

I have put my suggestions in ATD: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2616834

basically:
1-force mode choice before match and lock for duration
2-make camera drone killable and targetable much like the UAV
3-limited number of matches it can be used in to help the new players adjust then gone.

Edited by Flying Blind, 02 August 2013 - 08:00 AM.

[Sean von Steinike]

Getting rid of it would be the best improvement.

[Flying Blind]

i agree, but they will not get rid of it, so we need to find a way to make it not so horrible.

[Tennex]

it needs more polish. Introducing new players into MWO with such an erratic view mode is the worst thing they could do. and will only serve to drive players away.

• Can't see legs in some mechs
  
• Reticle jerking up and down when changing target location
  
• sharp camera jerks when backing up into something
  
• no arm movement (no toros arm seperation)

Edited by Tennex, 02 August 2013 - 09:07 AM.

[Farix]

After mulling over yesterday's 3PV tests, I would like to make the following suggested changes.

• Restore the mini-map in some fashion. Remember that the object of including 3PV is to assist new players in playing the game. However, by removing all navigational **** in 3PV, you are severely handicapping new players who are not only unfamiliar with the game, but are also unfamiliar with the maps. If you need to remove something from the HUD, I would suggest removing the targeting information in the upper right corner instead.
  
• Fix the mouse sensitivity issue between 1PV and 3PV. During the test, I noticed that I was not able to torso twist as fast in 3PV as I could in 1PV. The reason for this is because I had to move the mouse almost twice as far in 3PV to get the same amount of twist as in 1PV. The sensitivity needs to be the same regardless of view modes. This will also help ease new players into 1PV as well.
  
• To prevent the "peek-a-boo" exploits by quickly switching between 1PV to 3PV back to 1PV, I would suggest at cool down period of at least 30 seconds between switching the POV.
  
• Remove the ability to zoom in 3PV. When you zoom in, you are not able to see your mech's waste or legs, thus defeating the purpose of 3PV. Also, if the player does go into 3pv and stays zoomed in, they are likely just using the POV to get a tactical advantage anyways.
  
• I'm trying to figure out how to deal with the "jumping" target reticle. So far the only solution I can come up with is to have two separate reticles. One "true" reticle that show exactly where my weapons will hit as if I was in 1PV and a "center point" or "ghost" reticle that stays at the center of the screen.
  
• And finally, a renaming of the mode. Many players don't like the idea of 1PV/3PV modes and 1PV-only modes being called "normal" and "hardcore" respectively. Part of the reason is that it makes the 1PV-only modes to sound far more difficult than they actually are. Instead I would suggest renaming these mode to "Basic" and "Advanced" or even "Standard" and "Advanced". This should make the 1PV-only modes sound less intimidating than they actually are.
  
• I've seen the idea of a having the 3PV probe be destructible. I am completely opposed to this idea as it defeats the entire point of including 3PV in the first place, to help new players. I can see this mechanic being exploited by a few trollish players to grief new players. The object of 3PV was help reduce the amount of frustration a new player experiences when are first learning to control their mechs. Destructible 3PV probes will only increase it instead.
  
• I've also seen the idea floated that the 3PV probe be treated as a module. I'm on the fence on that one. However, it must be "free", included in all trial mechs by default, and at least the first three purchased mechs. Any attempts to require c-bill or GPX in order to have the module defeats the entire purpose of 3PV.

[Shae Starfyre]

Stop calling it third person view, and call it after it's deployable, destructable, ammo using, launcher critical employed piece of equipment synergyizing with other deployables, using mech quirks, and pilot skills, name - call it the POV Drone; not quite as small as the Covert NB-9 Drone, but provides a larger field of view.

Subsequently, your Atlas DDC can mount the Huge Entrenched DC7 Drone (land bound) that provides a 45 Degree field of view based on deployment area.

Or what about the Hornet TaCom AV9 Drone - attaches to mech and broadcasts visuals for 30 seconds.

Please....where's the imagination!!!! Stop calling it and coding it to be third person view....JUST STOP! Put real game depth into the stupid thing! Please!

[Donnie Silveray]

Sean von Steinike, on 02 August 2013 - 08:51 AM, said:

Getting rid of it would be the best improvement.

As I said, if 3PV doesn't work out, then it is a bad idea to not cut it. If it proves to be a hindrence to the game as a hole then rather than patching it up or flailing at it won't do anyone good, not the players or the devs. Best course would be to cut it. However....

Flying Blind, on 02 August 2013 - 09:00 AM, said:

i agree, but they will not get rid of it, so we need to find a way to make it not so horrible.

^^ this. I can't say for certain if the devs will listen to us, or that they'll make the right choices, but so long as we have good constructive criticism, they'll notice something. That's why the test server is there. Hah... unless they're just doing the test server to gauge stability and not player interest .

Flying Blind, on 02 August 2013 - 07:59 AM, said:

I have put my suggestions in ATD: http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2616834

basically:
1-force mode choice before match and lock for duration
2-make camera drone killable and targetable much like the UAV
3-limited number of matches it can be used in to help the new players adjust then gone.

Very good suggetions, though it be best to not force things upon a player. A consumable module perhaps, or limited to the training ground upon leaving the casual space. Many options to bring players into FPV, though some simply find 3PV to be more fun. I'm torn on whether or not to endulge them. I suppose let's assume MWO expands to like 10 million users, then we could have a permanent All-3PV mode as a separate queue for those users. Otherwise, I do think it wise to let players vote before a match on which view to stick with to prevent abuse.

Tennex, on 02 August 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

it needs more polish. Introducing new players into MWO with such an erratic view mode is the worst thing they could do. and will only serve to drive players away.

If they ship the game in that shape, I'd agree with you. Assuming some sanity is in the world, this kind of action would only bring in more players so long as they resolve possible abuses.

@ Farix: You make so many good points that I don't think I can point out all of them . But yes calling 1PV Hardcore is a bit of a disservice to the community as a whole, including those who play 3PV. Frankly I think some focus should be taken away in the thinking that 3PV is for new players and 1PV is for hardcore by making either mode viable on their own two mech legs. Playing in a perspective is a personal choice, not a skill choice for many I know. Small example is that I can't hit for crap in Skyrim in 3PV using magic or a bow, but I like to use it cause I enjoy seeing my character fight and react. If I were to use 3PV in MWO, it'd be for similar enjoyment of seeing my mech in action from the outside. However I would not want to fight a foe who abuses both modes at once.

[Eddrick]

Farix, on 02 August 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

• And finally, a renaming of the mode. Many players don't like the idea of 1PV/3PV modes and 1PV-only modes being called "normal" and "hardcore" respectively. Part of the reason is that it makes the 1PV-only modes to sound far more difficult than they actually are. Instead I would suggest renaming these mode to "Basic" and "Advanced" or even "Standard" and "Advanced". This should make the 1PV-only modes sound less intimidating than they actually are.

I think it should be named, "Beginner" for 3rd person and "Normal" for 1st person if it's intention is truly to help new players. It just sounds more fitting. "Basic" and "Advanced" still makes it sound like 1st person is more difficult to use.

[MercJ]

I posted this in the public test feedback thread as well, but I firmly believe adding a delay to deploying your drone (switching views), perhaps even with a cool animation showing your drone detach/deploy, would solve many of the concerns people have about using it to gain an unfair advantage. That way, you couldn't quickly peek around a corner and then switch back to aim effectively. Make it a strategic choice.

You should have to decide if you want to see a little differently while giving your position away or stay in the cockpit (and receive all of the sensor information/warnings/minimap etc). Also, you should have to make sure you pick a good time to switch views, as it would effectively take you out of the fight while you transition - the actual time taken would have to be tested.

[INSEkT L0GIC]

Here were my thoughts based on the test server feedback thread, twitch streams, screenshots, youtubes, and forum discussions.

1. Adjust the angle of the drone camera to aim down more so there is less revealed outside of 1PV mode

2. Set FOV by chassis (that cannot be adjusted by player) that shows the Mech from head to toe, taking up about 70% of the screen vertically

3. Letterbox the screen in a "Training Drone Active" camera overlay to reduce the extra revealed areas

Something like this (my photoshop skills are abysmal, so just imagine the HUD values squeezing down into it).



Edit: In addition to making the switch between view modes take longer (add in animations), and making the drone destructible.

Edited by INSEkT L0GIC, 02 August 2013 - 11:47 AM.

[Farix]

Eddrick, on 02 August 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

I think it should be named, "Beginner" for 3rd person and "Normal" for 1st person if it's intention is truly to help new players. It just sounds more fitting. "Basic" and "Advanced" still makes it sound like 1st person is more difficult to use.

I wouldn't call it "Beginner". First because many people do like to play games in 3PV. And second "Beginner" has a certain negative stigma attached to it. "Casual" also has a similar negative stigma. This is why I first opted for a term that is fairly neutral, like "Basic". Also remember that this is the mode that the game will default to, so "Normal" isn't too far of a stretch. This is also why I like to steer away from using the term "Hardcore" for the 1PV-only mode. "Hardcore" also has a rather negative stigma attached to it, hence why I went with "Advanced" as a more neutral term.

[Donnie Silveray]

Farix: Couldn't we simply call it 1st Person/3rd Person? Those are equally neutral . If the 1st person nature is to be the meat of the game I wouldn't really call it 'advanced'.

INSEkT L0GIC, on 02 August 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

I like the fov of the mech though it can become questionable when you're in a larger mech, I heard a suggestion about a dual reticle system that could potentially solve for the assault mechs. I think I may make a vid in 3DS Max to demonstrate how I feel it can be done.

Edited by Donnie Silveray, 02 August 2013 - 02:45 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

Donnie Silveray, on 02 August 2013 - 06:59 AM, said:

1) Segregate the queues. Until there is no definite advantage to using 3rd person over 1st, there should be no view switching. Switching may be implemented when the below is accomplished. 3PV only has minimap and all UI restored.

There will always be a visual awareness advantage when using 3PV; that's the whole point of implementing it. Furthermore, they ARE splitting the queues into two difficulty settings; Easy Mode and Hardcore Mode (as seen in the public tests, but disabled for now).

Easy mode will feature 1PV and 3PV. Hardcore mode will be 1PV only. The trick will be to balance both of these two difficulty modes with features that make both queues appealing to all players — thereby encouraging players to use both modes frequently (and for different reasons) so the server populations stay healthy. Otherwise, eventually the game's population will inevitably slide to whichever one has the shortest wait times for matches.

I have some suggestions here to prevent that from happening:

http://mwomercs.com/...hardcore-modes/