110 replies to this topic

[p30pl3h4t3m3]

hi all

first, my english sucks, so...

well, as a player who waits for the claninvasion, and all players talk about the advantage that clan mechs will have, there is a solution to solve this problem and its simple for the factionwars (and maybe also random matches)

IS form up into lances, 1 lance = 4 mechs
clanner form up in stars, 1 star = 5 mechs...

so for matchmaking... 8 vs 8 or 12 vs 12 ? no... 5 clanner vs 8 IS or 10 clanner vs 12 IS...

would be fair enough when clan mechs are overpowerd but have to fight outnumberd, quiaff ?

also not all people would play clan/clanmechs then, cause who wants to fight outnumberd... well i will/want...

and btw ... dire wolf pls !!!

Edited by p30pl3h4t3m3, 28 June 2013 - 05:15 PM.

[Rasako]

can we just be done with this terrible "canon" approach to balancing the clans and balance them properly for a REAL game?

[darkfall13]

Rasako, on 28 June 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

can we just be done with this terrible "canon" approach to balancing the clans and balance them properly for a REAL game?

Edited by darkfall13, 28 June 2013 - 05:28 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Until the clan mechs have been introduced, we can only theorize about how they perform.

Advantages atm the moment.

Medium range weapons - longer range than similar Innersphere versions
Clan DHS - Ability to equip more DHS (2 crits to 3 crits for IS DHS) and in more spaces (CT and legs)
The above currently allows their heat scale cap to be increased.
Weight savings from being able to equip both Endo Steel and Ferrous Armor
Never mind how people will min/max their mechs. Sorta like they do now..


The 2nd and 3rd line are currently the biggest game changers, with a frakking huge emphasis on the heat scale cap.

Doing anything about the numbers in a match is also meaningless unless or until there is some sort of actual weight/BV/etc requirements.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 28 June 2013 - 06:01 PM.

[FupDup]

Finding a magic ratio that actually gives each side a roughly 50% change of winning (at equal skill levels) will be almost impossible. Assuming 5v8, 10v12, or anything else just because of TT is foolish at best. There are so many conditions in MWO that will make Clan mechs either better than TT or worse than TT:

1. Convergence (Timber Wolf = DoA)
2. Doubled armor (higher emphasis on alpha-strikes to penetrate it, Clans are better at this specific strategy)
3. Free and open customization of standard Battlemechs (Omnimech advantages lost completely; also, the TT ratios were based on stock mechs for both sides whereas every player in MWO worth his/her salt uses a custom)
4. Ultra Autocannon implementation (UAC/20 will be broken)
5. No heat penalties (spam ER lazors)
6. Clan pilots in MWO will actually know how to use real tactics, as opposed to TT pilots who used stupid honor rules
7. 1.4 DHS (Clan DHS are smaller and can thus be spammed easier, this hurts IS much more)


Something to remember is that the TT ratios were based on pure fluff (just the preferences of each faction) and thus will not likely work at all in MWO due to the differences listed above as well as any that I might have missed. I hate to break it to ya'll, but using multiples of 4 for IS and 5 for Clans could quite possibly cause a massive shitstorm of brokenness one way or the other (Clans UP or OP). We're gonna need completely new numbers for Mechwarrior: Online.

Edited by FupDup, 28 June 2013 - 07:08 PM.

[Odanan]

Rasako, on 28 June 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

can we just be done with this terrible "canon" approach to balancing the clans and balance them properly for a REAL game?

MW4 player, I see...
There is no point in adding Clan weapons if you are going to make them as bad as IS weapons.

Total drop weight of the team, anyone?

[John Norad]

Rasako, on 28 June 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

can we just be done with this terrible "canon" approach to balancing the clans and balance them properly for a REAL game?

Like... how? Except by tonnage or some combat rating?
What exactly do you mean by 'balance them properly'?
And what does 'canon' have to do with it? Is it the buzzword for anything negative in MW:O. Ah yeah, I forgot.

Balancing quality with quantity is a very oldschool'ish and proper way of balance. Of course you have to get the numbers right and tweak the system until it does what it's supposed to (deliver fair and exciting fights).
But that would apply to EVERY balancing approach. Surprise!

The only simple and utmost boring way to balance is to make everything the same. Just different color.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Rasako, on 28 June 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

can we just be done with this terrible "canon" approach to balancing the clans and balance them properly for a REAL game?

So again, to drive the nail in the coffin for this "hurr durr 10v12 is fair" nonsense, what happenes when a Merc Corp (which will have 3 lances) has all clan mechs?


hurp-a-derp

Edited by mwhighlander, 28 June 2013 - 07:07 PM.

[DOTSGEMINI]

mwhighlander, on 28 June 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

So again, to drive the nail in the coffin for this "hurr durr 10v12 is fair" nonsense, what happenes when a Merc Corp (which will have 3 lances) has all clan mechs?


hurp-a-derp

Its simple...We kill the Batman.

I think its unlikely that a merc corp will have the capital to send a full 3 lances equipped with omni mechs in. It would be really...Really dumb to do.

[Skye Storm]

There is no repair and rearm so why not?

[ReaverLord]

Rasako, on 28 June 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

can we just be done with this terrible "canon" approach to balancing the clans and balance them properly for a REAL game?

what is the definition of 'REAL' game? there is a reason that they left and rolled over the IS so easily

[FrostCollar]

DOTSGEMINI, on 28 June 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

I think its unlikely that a merc corp will have the capital to send a full 3 lances equipped with omni mechs in. It would be really...Really dumb to do.

What about for a mission of the utmost importance? Trust me, it'll come up.

However, since the clans are so far off, all we can do is speculate for now.

[Gyrok]

mwhighlander, on 28 June 2013 - 07:04 PM, said:

So again, to drive the nail in the coffin for this "hurr durr 10v12 is fair" nonsense, what happenes when a Merc Corp (which will have 3 lances) has all clan mechs?


hurp-a-derp

Who says Merc Corps will even have access to clan mechs? Ever considered it might only be clanners piloting them?

[POOTYTANGASAUR]

Rasako, on 28 June 2013 - 05:20 PM, said:

can we just be done with this terrible "canon" approach to balancing the clans and balance them properly for a REAL game?

HELL NO! I want the clans to devastate 8v8 and 12v12 like canon. Then after a week or so IS get clan tech and even the playing field.

[DOTSGEMINI]

FrostCollar, on 28 June 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

What about for a mission of the utmost importance? Trust me, it'll come up.

However, since the clans are so far off, all we can do is speculate for now.

I know it would come up, I just find it really unlikely that a company would risk that much. But then again, ive seen crazier things.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

DOTSGEMINI, on 28 June 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

I know it would come up, I just find it really unlikely that a company would risk that much. But then again, ive seen crazier things.

Rofl, beleive me, many merc corps have at least 10 or so memebers right now with +100M C-Bills sitting in the bank with literally nothing left to spend it on.

And also, early on it was stated Merc Corps will get access to clan tech although it is going to be expensive. The problem with that is, we currently have so much money now, and clans still being far off in the future, money is going to be such a non-issue it would utterly shock me if a lot of the top merc corps right now doesn't instantly get decked out with all the clan equpiment.

[Fetladral]

clan LRMs no minimum range. most broken thing ever. hell there is a version of the kraken/bane with 8 CLAN LRM 15s and 8+ tons of ammo (not a lot in MWO but thas alot in tabletop). they need to add hot loading to innersphere LRMs.

i may be wrong but I think hot loading is arming the LRMs in the launchers thus getting rid of the arming in flight so getting rid of minimum range. The downside being the missiles if hit while in the tubes can explode.

Edited by Fetladral, 29 June 2013 - 08:38 AM.

[DOTSGEMINI]

mwhighlander, on 29 June 2013 - 08:23 AM, said:

Rofl, beleive me, many merc corps have at least 10 or so memebers right now with +100M C-Bills sitting in the bank with literally nothing left to spend it on.

And also, early on it was stated Merc Corps will get access to clan tech although it is going to be expensive. The problem with that is, we currently have so much money now, and clans still being far off in the future, money is going to be such a non-issue it would utterly shock me if a lot of the top merc corps right now doesn't instantly get decked out with all the clan equpiment.

Fair. Fair. I have less than ten million at any given time (usually closer to 3....sadly), I thought it was more uncommon than that. I know of a person with more than 500 million.
Perhaps they could balance it out by only allowing so much clantech per merc corp per match? I assume there will be long cool downs and Repair and Rearms.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

DOTSGEMINI, on 29 June 2013 - 09:35 AM, said:

Fair. Fair. I have less than ten million at any given time (usually closer to 3....sadly), I thought it was more uncommon than that. I know of a person with more than 500 million.
Perhaps they could balance it out by only allowing so much clantech per merc corp per match? I assume there will be long cool downs and Repair and Rearms.

If they did repair costs properly (so that Merc with Clan Mechs would actually be expensive to run) then it would resolve itself.

Sadly, PGI's implementation of repair plus rearm was simply a good mechanic done so **** poor it was crap.

Fetladral, on 29 June 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

clan LRMs no minimum range. most broken thing ever. hell there is a version of the kraken/bane with 8 CLAN LRM 15s and 8+ tons of ammo (not a lot in MWO but thas alot in tabletop). they need to add hot loading to innersphere LRMs.

i may be wrong but I think hot loading is arming the LRMs in the launchers thus getting rid of the arming in flight so getting rid of minimum range. The downside being the missiles if hit while in the tubes can explode.

Exactly right, the Hot Loaded LRM racks can explode, dealing equal damage of the size of the LRM to that location per rack. And honestly, this whole minimum range thing is why LRMs are such crap and will always be crap. You can't balance LRMs around a Gimmick based on TT

Edited by mwhighlander, 29 June 2013 - 09:41 AM.

[AEgg]

mwhighlander, on 29 June 2013 - 09:40 AM, said:

If they did repair costs properly (so that Merc with Clan Mechs would actually be expensive to run) then it would resolve itself.

Sadly, PGI's implementation of repair plus rearm was simply a good mechanic done so **** poor it was crap.




Exactly right, the Hot Loaded LRM racks can explode, dealing equal damage of the size of the LRM to that location per rack. And honestly, this whole minimum range thing is why LRMs are such crap and will always be crap. You can't balance LRMs around a Gimmick based on TT

Balancing ANYTHING with cost is bad design. All it means is that people who already have enough cbills saved up will CONSTANTLY run whatever's the most expensive. Making things prohibitively expensive only means that you have to either be on premium constantly to use it, or just never make any money ingame and buy everything with cash. Literally the definition of pay to win.

You have to balance things with something that's actually part of the game. Money is not. Uneven numbers or factoring equipment selection into matchmaking are the only two viable options I've seen. And factoring eqipment selection doesn't even really solve anything, since eventually everyone will just be using the most expensive things possible. Limiting teams to ONLY IS tech vs ONLY clan tech is really the only thing that won't make IS useless.

There are a few other options, but they're far more disruptive. If you give some kind of non-combat buff to IS, it could be balanced. Some examples are not allowing any clan tech in premades, not giving clan mechs any HUD, only allow third person for IS mechs, no modules for clan mechs, etc. Anything that provides a tactical disadvantage but not a firepower/armor/speed disadvantage could theoretically work, but it would be difficult to implement well.