57 replies to this topic

[Redwood Elf]

I have yet to find a mech that had MORE heat dissipation after getting double heat sinks. Losing the leg heat sink space, and on top of that, NOT getting the full double heat sink effect and keeping the 3-slot DHS makes them the worst investment in the game.

Just one example: Just today, Atlas gets double heat sink "upgrade" and goes from 15 normal heat sinks, to only 6 double heat sinks, going from 15 Dissipation to 9.6 (Fully double on the ones in the engine, but can only fit 4 more in the slots that had the normal heat sinks in them)

And you don't get a refund for going back to Standard heat sinks...in fact you have to PAY to go back.

Someone explain to me how that is in any way worth $1,500,000 C bills?

They either need to make DHS 2 slots so we can put some in our legs, add one slot to the legs for the same reason, or give them the full, as advertized "Double Heat Sink" effect.

[Sporklift]

For the very last bit, the heat mechanic in general would have to be changed so that heat would actually still have some effect on a machine running DHS. Ex. My CN9-AL right now is basically a giant watercooler, with true DHS it would become a holy terror and its not even very heavily armed.
This has been argued about alot. Usually its concluded that SHS are far inferior to anything but very specific assault mech builds (heavier machines usually lack space but not tonnage). As for the cost, to avoid it in the future there is a site that features a mechbuilder so you can see what your heat burden will be without upgrading or downgrading in the actual mechlab.

[Wintersdark]

When you change, it removes all the sinks on your mech. The reality is though the 10 internal sinks are all 2.0, additional in engine sinks ( 2 more with a 300 engine) are 1.4. So, with a 300 engine, before adding any external heat sinks (before using any slots that is) you have the equivalent of 22.8 standard heat sinks. This would be with the same engine - 12 inside the engine and 11 slots used. That's all 4 leg slots, and 7 other slots used.

DHS are always an upgrade.

[Eximar]

With a 300 engine in your Atlas, you get 25 heat reduction with your 15 SHS, at a cost of 15 tons. When you upgrade to DHS, you have 22.8 just from the engine, as Wintersdark explained. So, when you spend 4 tons for 4 more DHS, you now have 28.4 heat reduction and 11 tons to use for much better things than heat sinks.

[ShinVector]

Redwood Elf, on 24 July 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

I have yet to find a mech that had MORE heat dissipation after getting double heat sinks. Losing the leg heat sink space, and on top of that, NOT getting the full double heat sink effect and keeping the 3-slot DHS makes them the worst investment in the game.

Just one example: Just today, Atlas gets double heat sink "upgrade" and goes from 15 normal heat sinks, to only 6 double heat sinks, going from 15 Dissipation to 9.6 (Fully double on the ones in the engine, but can only fit 4 more in the slots that had the normal heat sinks in them)

And you don't get a refund for going back to Standard heat sinks...in fact you have to PAY to go back.

Someone explain to me how that is in any way worth $1,500,000 C bills?

They either need to make DHS 2 slots so we can put some in our legs, add one slot to the legs for the same reason, or give them the full, as advertized "Double Heat Sink" effect.

Very specific assault builds can benefit from having SHS instead.. I believe I made one on an Awesome with medium lasers only and SHS. Also the only other major benefit is being able to put 4 heatsinks in a legs and if you put them in water, if am not wrong.. +70% heat dissipation ?

[Redwood Elf]

Eximar, on 24 July 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

With a 300 engine in your Atlas, you get 25 heat reduction with your 15 SHS, at a cost of 15 tons. When you upgrade to DHS, you have 22.8 just from the engine, as Wintersdark explained. So, when you spend 4 tons for 4 more DHS, you now have 28.4 heat reduction and 11 tons to use for much better things than heat sinks.

Must be my imagination that I seem to overheat about twice as often then...I was expecting a noticably better dissipation rate, but it doesn't appear to be the case.

[Eximar]

It definitely is better. I've been playing since closed Beta and there is a world of difference. But, with all the extra tonnage, you can have a lot more firepower, so you can still easily overheat and that may be what you're seeing.

[TehSBGX]

Your engine heat sinks become true doubles. Also in this game heat sinks add to your heat cap, thus doubles are manditory. Even though they eat up crits they save tonnage allowing you to get bigger engines easier. I learned that doubles were manditory within my first week of playing.

[Roland]

There is perhaps one or two builds which can actually get slightly better heat efficiency by cramming in single heat sinks... and those builds are bad. You generally need to cram in like 30 heat sinks before it even begins to start making sense.

Double heat sinks are generally the best upgrade you can make to a mech.

Basically, you automatically get a free 10 tons of heat sinks. So if you had anything less than 20 heat sinks in the mech, you now have better heat efficency, free crit slots, AND free tonnage now.

/thread

[Team Leader]

This is a joke right? There are like 3 builds ever that benefit from SHS over DHS. Nearly every other build benefits TONS from DHS... l2p dude Im sorry but seriously you must be troling

[Corvus Antaka]

lol?

[Redwood Elf]

Eximar, on 24 July 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:

It definitely is better. I've been playing since closed Beta and there is a world of difference. But, with all the extra tonnage, you can have a lot more firepower, so you can still easily overheat and that may be what you're seeing.

Didn't change my weapons, just had more tonnage for ammo.

Team Leader, on 24 July 2013 - 09:53 PM, said:

This is a joke right? There are like 3 builds ever that benefit from SHS over DHS. Nearly every other build benefits TONS from DHS... l2p dude Im sorry but seriously you must be troling

Quoth the troll.

Edited by Redwood Elf, 25 July 2013 - 05:37 AM.

[Mechteric]

Sorry but all actual real life evidence points to DHS being better, ton for ton, every time.

Case 1: 10 Engine heat sinks only. The tonnage cost is zero, so exactly the same tonnage as single heat sinks. Double the disspation and extra capacity mean you're getting for free (tonnage wise) extra ability to deal with heat.

Case 2: <=21 heat sinks. Doubles will be taking up a LOT of crit space, but still at least you have the tonnage to mount bigger engines, and heavy heat weapons that don't take up too many crits (e.g. 4 PPCs, 5 Large Lasers).


Now lets see this in action, Stalker 4 ERPPCs.

30 SHS: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e18657b76f1d0d4
27% cooling efficiency, requires XL, and is slower (well you could go with a STD 200 engine, but thats even slower, plus you'd only be able to reach 29 SHS unless you drop in Endo Steel (which costs $ also) and still only brings you to 33 SHS with 29% efficiency

21 DHS: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...907f7572d78cb63
32 % cooling efficiency, STD engine, faster.


Looking at the Weaponlabs for each of those you see better heat capacity, dissipation, sustained dps, plus you'll live a lot longer without that XL. All of this possible because of the magic of the Double Heat sink. Thank you for your time.

Edited by CapperDeluxe, 25 July 2013 - 06:15 AM.

[Peter Thorndyke IV]

Redwood Elf, on 24 July 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Just one example: Just today, Atlas gets double heat sink "upgrade" and goes from 15 normal heat sinks, to only 6 double heat sinks, going from 15 Dissipation to 9.6 (Fully double on the ones in the engine, but can only fit 4 more in the slots that had the normal heat sinks in them)

Now lets do the maths, shall we, it goes down from 15 to 6 Heatsinks, = so you are running a 150 rated Engine.

Yes that means, that you will lack crit spaces to even come close to the 15 heatsinks you allready had.

On the other hand, a 100t mech built to move with the amazing speed of aprox. 20 kph is an perfect example of why the mechlab is granting too much freedom of modification.

Just my 2 ct.

Back to Topic,

• no, the Heatsinks are an improvement
  
• yes, it will ruin your "fubar omg am i powerfull turret"
  
• no, thats not a flaw in the system

[Redwood Elf]

Peter Thorndyke IV, on 25 July 2013 - 06:17 AM, said:

Now lets do the maths, shall we, it goes down from 15 to 6 Heatsinks, = so you are running a 150 rated Engine.

Yes that means, that you will lack crit spaces to even come close to the 15 heatsinks you allready had.

On the other hand, a 100t mech built to move with the amazing speed of aprox. 20 kph is an perfect example of why the mechlab is granting too much freedom of modification.

Just my 2 ct.

Back to Topic,

• no, the Heatsinks are an improvement
  
• yes, it will ruin your "fubar omg am i powerfull turret"
  
• no, thats not a flaw in the system

However, my speed is and was 53-ish, for an Atlas that's pretty fast.

So stop trolling.

Weapons:

LRM5 (After DHS, upgraded to LRM15, not exactly a massive heat difference, since I fire it so rarely)
AC10X
2 ERPPC (1 per arm)
2 ERLLaser (1 per arm)

So how am I an overpowered slow moving turret?

Edited by Redwood Elf, 25 July 2013 - 06:54 AM.

[Peter Thorndyke IV]

If all of that is true,
then i would suggest to open a support ticket.

You get 1 Heatsink for each full 25 rating of your Engine, to get a top Speed of 56-ish that would mean a 300 rated engine.
So your build would go to 10 DHS after the upgrade with 2 Engine Heatsink slots free to fill with DHS, using tonnage but no crit space.

Even the 10 default DHS that you recieve are more effective then 15 SHS.

Nevertheless, just to remind you,
people not sharing your rather limited perception, are not trolling, just disagreeing.

P.S.

With 6 DHS you wouldn't even be allowed to launch in that mech :-)

Edited by Peter Thorndyke IV, 25 July 2013 - 06:56 AM.

[Mackman]

You want people to take you seriously and not just scoff in disbelief? Post your build, dude. There are very, very few builds that benefit from SHS over DHS: The thing is, the advantage might be in something other than just heat dissipation. You might end up with similar heat dissipation, but you'll have more weight for ammo, bigger weapons, and a bigger engine (which, in turn, will allow you to equip more heatsinks).

But the fact that you say that you haven't found a single build where DHS is an improvement means that you don't understand how the game works. That's the bottom line. If you want to be taken seriously, prove us wrong by posting your smurfy build. http://mwo.smurfy-net.de/mechlab

Edit: If you have a 250 Engine or larger, and you have 20 SHS in total, that's 10 tons outside the engine, and 10 critical slots. Switch to DHS, and you have instantly saved 10 tons and 10 critical slots. Of course, after that, the benefit gets slightly less pronounced, but it's always there, except in a couple cases in light mechs, and a couple cases in assault mechs. For everything else, DHS are better.

Edited by Mackman, 25 July 2013 - 08:41 AM.

[Redwood Elf]

I was only counting the Heat sinks outside the 10 built in engine sinks...sorry for the confusion...so it's a total of 16, not 6...but the 10 in the engine have a different dissipation rate (supposedly) - I had a LOT of external heat sinks before I upgraded, 4 in the legs, 1 in the head, 2 in Center torso (in the engine slots), and 4 each in LT/RT...now I have 2 CT, 2 LT, 1 RT, 1 RA, which, as you say, SHOULD make the mech cooler adding in the 10 engine sinks, but it doesn't SEEM to.

(Edit: forgot my AMS in the LA, which locks out a DHS - have less than I even thought.)

Edited by Redwood Elf, 25 July 2013 - 08:55 AM.

[Mackman]

Redwood Elf, on 25 July 2013 - 08:38 AM, said:

I was only counting the Heat sinks outside the 10 built in engine sinks...sorry for the confusion...so it's a total of 16, not 6...but the 10 in the engine have a different dissipation rate (supposedly) - I had a LOT of external heat sinks before I upgraded, 4 in the legs, 1 in the head, 2 in Center torso (in the engine slots), and 4 each in LT/RT...now I have 2 CT, 1 LT, 1 RT, 1 RA, 1 LA, which, as you say, SHOULD make the mech cooler adding in the 10 engine sinks, but it doesn't SEEM to.

You will have at least a slightly better cooling rate, but more importantly, you've saved nine tons, which you can use for more ammo or a better engine (which might then let you cram in yet another DHS). The advantage is there, and it's objectively measurable.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I'm moving this over to the new Player Help section of the forums, as it's not really an open Gameplay Balance thread, but a question about how the DHS system works and helps your combat performance.

Every Double Heatsink that is physically integrated into your engine will remove 2x the heat as a normal Single Heatsink, so a Standard 250 Engine equipped with DHS has the heat dissipation value of 20 SHS. And that's just the Heat Sinks in your Engine. Adding each additional DHS throughout your Mech adds 1.4x the heat dissipation of a SHS.

As other have mentioned, the only theoretical builds that can use SHS more efficiently than DHS are Assault Mechs that use only Medium Lasers and fill the rest of their Mech with tons and tons of SHS; just about all other Mech Builds imaginable will gain so much of an advantage from the 2x Engine Heatsinks associated with DHS that it renders SHS almost moot.

There is also the drop-rule that You can't start a Match with less than 10 heat sink units installed, so a User of DHS who wants to drop with the bare-minimum will have an enormous advantage over a SHS user who wants to drop with the minimum because the DHS user will have greatly-amplified heat dissipation compared to the SHS user given the same number of physical heatsinks installed.

You might not be able to remove more total heat from your Mech using DHS when given all the space of your Mech to work with, but you can remove much more heat with DHS when given a set amount of Heat Sink Tonnage to work with. So, in the simplest of terms, the amount of extra heat dissipation you get from the doubled Engine Heatsinks, without having to add more heatsinks to your Mech, make the DHS upgrade very valuable compared to the SHS system. A Standard 250 engine with DHS removes the same amount of heat as a Standard 250 with SHS + 10 more tons of Single Heat Sinks mounted on your Mech's chassis slots.