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Broken Ssrms – Broken Lights


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#1 Garrond

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 11:52 PM

See bottom for TL;DR version.

I’m an experienced player. I’m definitely not an expert progamer. But I managed to master 24 mechs so far - including 3 Commandos and 3 Jenners. I know the tactics, I know the loadouts, I know the maps. I’m ok at piloting and aiming. So much about me.

Just yesterday, after having piloted Heavies and Mediums exclusively for many weeks now, I decided to have some fun with my good old Commandos again I always loved to pilot so much.

First: COM-2D. Used to be easy-mode – but lots of fun therefore. ECM, 3x SSRM2, MLas. I knew SSRMs got nerfed recently but since I rarely ever use those, I had no idea how bad they got nerfed. I failed horribly. 3 matches with less than 100 damage, 1 match with 360 damage after having fired 2 full stacks of ammo combined with good piloting and good use of my laser. Ouch.

But what changed?

SSRMS: Let’s face it. SSRMs definitely were way too powerful. An easy-mode weapon shouldn’t be a killer weapon. Too much damage was applied to CTs too fast. Therefore I was completely fine with the first nerf, damage reduction. That was needed. But still some exotic mech variants like the Streakcats were able to get several kills each match coring enemy mechs using SSRMs. Then came the second nerf, missile spread. When I first read about it I thought: Yeah, that’s perfect. An auto-aim weapon should have a wide spread with no option to blast distinctive body parts away. But now after having tested the actual SSRM implementation myself, I must say: Keep the spread but increase the damage! If this weapon can’t be used to kill enemies (which is good), it should at least be a viable option for beginners to apply some serious but wide spread damage. Right now SSRMs are completely useless. Having fired 2 full stacks of ammo at an enemy light mech, I would at least expect the arms to be blown off. SSRMs already have a higher weight than SRMs which sadly is irrelevant to heavier mechs but a factor to be considered for light mechs.

After this experience I refitted my COM-2D to 2x SRM4 and a MLas but switched to my COM-TDK for the next few matches without playing the 2D any more. But I doubt the new loadout will shine, since the arms get blown off way too fast as I was about to experience with my TDK.
My TDK is maxed out, using 4x Mlas, AMS and going over140 KPH. Without much of a surprise I could finally manage to kill something again. But it was way harder than it used to be. Why?

Spiders: Those darn things are just bugged. They are fast and agile, jumping all the time. I’m fine with that. But even when they’re running in straight lines from you or standing still, they hardly take any damage. Many players have complained about this in the forums before – devs, do something about it!

Hit detection/weapon accuracy: An AC40 Jager instantly got me killed last night because I was running up to him in a straight line. My fault. That’s a perfect example for bad piloting using a Light. The next few matches I tried to use more cover and approach my enemies in diagonal lines. But to my surprise this didn’t help much. I repeatedly got sniped by PPCs, Gauss, AC20s,LLas,… running at full speed (140 KPH). While hit detection and HSR seems to be irrelevant to Spiders and a few high ping players, I as a low ping Commando pilot get a good beating.

Especially PPCs got a heavy hit with the nerf-bat recently. And the heat penalty for boating really reduced the PPC sniping. Playing Heavies or Mediums myself, this really helped. But for Light mechs, which have considerably less armor, this is still a topic. In my opinion the the heat-nerf was too much. Lowering the heat penalties but adding an accuracy nerf would maybe help the Lights, too and not make PPCs obsolete against other weight classes. Or maybe re-introduce a firing delay for PPCs and Gauss? Not sure how to solve this. But with the next patch the PPCs will have their base heat increased once again. In my opinion PGI has a tendency of hitting too hard with the nerf bat lately.

Right now Jenners seem to work fine. They are hard hitting and agile but die after several well aimed shots. Spiders are pesky nuisances. And most Ravens and Commandos can be considered free kills. Except the 3L which is still almost OK, the other Ravens and all the Commandos deal low damage and can be taken out quite fast. I always have to laugh getting attacked by RVN-2X when piloting my Heavies.

================================================
TL;DR version:

SSRMs: Keep the spread but increase the damage! If this weapon can’t be used to kill enemies (which is good), it should at least be a viable option for beginners to apply some serious but wide spread damage to enemy mechs.

Hit detection: While hit detection and HSR seems to be irrelevant to Spiders and a few high ping players, I as a low ping Commando pilot get a good beating. Commandos die laughably fast these days.

Spiders: Those darn things are just bugged. Fix them already!

Heat penalty for boating: Lowering the heat penalties but adding an accuracy nerf would maybe help the Lights, too and not make PPCs obsolete against other weight classes.

================================================

See you on the battlefield!
- Garry

Edited by Garrond, 31 July 2013 - 11:57 PM.


#2 El Bandito

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 11:55 PM

Yeah Spiders--especially 5Ds are brokenly OP right now thanks to hitboxes and hit reg fails.

As broken as pre-nerf RVN-3L.

SSRMs need 2 damage to at least be noticeable. Right now it is pure joke material. Too bad there are too many people scared of non-existent SSRM4/6 to admit that.

Hell, why the hell are they scared of SSRM6, when I will be riding and brawling in my Quad CLRM20 with Artemis Catapult with no minimum range after Clan tech comes out?

Edited by El Bandito, 01 August 2013 - 12:09 AM.


#3 Garrond

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:01 AM

Lol - Like your banner, Bandito. ^^

#4 The Mech behind you

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:23 AM

unfortunately one of the best weapons that could help with the lights + bad hitreg problem is heavily underpowered right now (SSRM)

#5 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:29 AM

the spider is a problem because lasers go everywhere, and since it's almost impossible to laser track the CT of a wiggling target unless you yourself are an android, it is obviously hard to kill. on the other hand, one 30 damage strike kills a spider or legs him, and a dual gauss K2 can easily cripple any spider.

the first issue you are experiencing is because of arm ballistic convergence differing from torso convergence, and the spiders tiny profile makes hitting him with arm mounted non locked shots almost impossible.

this is why lasers are better in arms than ballistics to hit small fast mechs, or lock must be used.

The SSRM nurf has finally made fights fun and interesting again.

I've been running my Commandos with both SSRM2 and SRM, and was especially pleased to see how bow all 3 commando types are quite viabl, not just the ecm 3 ssrm2 cheese build FOTM mech.

commando is surprisingly powerful for it's tinyness.

#6 El Bandito

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:34 AM

View PostColonel Pada Vinson, on 01 August 2013 - 12:29 AM, said:

the spider is a problem because lasers go everywhere, and since it's almost impossible to laser track the CT of a wiggling target unless you yourself are an android, it is obviously hard to kill. on the other hand, one 30 damage strike kills a spider or legs him, and a dual gauss K2 can easily cripple any spider.


IF hit reg is working. Right now Lights and especially Spiders are pretty much immune to most big shots and almost immune to lasers.

Biggest reason you are having fun again in a Commando is because you are playing a faulty game with severe hit-reg issue.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 August 2013 - 12:35 AM.


#7 Relic1701

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:37 AM

If they up the damage on SSRM2's now, you'll all be screaming to have it reduced when the clans roll around and start blasting everything with there SSRM4's & 6's.

#8 El Bandito

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:39 AM

View PostRelic1701, on 01 August 2013 - 12:37 AM, said:

If they up the damage on SSRM2's now, you'll all be screaming to have it reduced when the clans roll around and start blasting everything with there SSRM4's & 6's.


See what I mean? There are still people who thinks SSRM4/6 are scary when my Catapult will be boating 5 ton Clan LRM20s with no minimum range and can reach up to 1000 meters. This is why we can't have nice things--thanks to people who have no idea about Clan tech.

Lemme say it again:

CLAN LRMS WILL COMPETELY ECLIPSE SSRM4 AND SSRM6. YOUR ARGUMENT IS STUPID.




Relic, read the second post from the top and shush.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 August 2013 - 12:43 AM.


#9 William Mountbank

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:42 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 01 August 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

Biggest reason you are having fun again in a Commando is because you are playing a faulty game with severe hit-reg issue.


Yeah, he should be having a crap game - all lights should just die early and stop wasting the time of busy assaults.

#10 El Bandito

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 12:44 AM

View PostWilliam Mountbank, on 01 August 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

Yeah, he should be having a crap game - all lights should just die early and stop wasting the time of busy assaults.


That's the fault of PGI, not the fault of the players. PGI should have made Lights to have big incentive to pilot from day one--not this taking advantage of broken game hit-reg crap.

If you don't like it, tell PGI to let Lights have more rewarding roles--over and over again. I for one am not holding my breath. PGI can't even fix their stupid net codes.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 August 2013 - 12:48 AM.


#11 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 01:33 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 01 August 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:


IF hit reg is working.



no kidding. hitreg works fine for me though. Even killing spiders and commandos :)

#12 Sephlock

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 01:43 AM

weap·on
/ˈwepən/


Noun
  • A thing designed or used for inflicting bodily harm or physical damage.
  • A means of gaining an advantage or defending oneself in a conflict or contest: "resignation threats are a weapon in his armory".
---

Yeah I can't see why you'd ever want a "weapon" to be usable for killing an enemy, especially in a game with no take-them-alive style victory condition.

Just think of SSRMs as "nonlethal weapons"- or, to put it in SAT terms:

The SSRM has the same relationship to the SRM as the beanbag round has to a 10 gauge shotgun shell.

All for the low low cost of 50% more weight!*

I mean, come on.... the machinegun, flamer, and LBX were getting lonely down at the bottom of the weapon viability list... let's let them keep their new friend a while longer!

Don't worry, with the crying for the SSRM nerf to be applied as-is to LRMs, SSRMs will have the company of another missile weapon soon enough!


*Btw, the homing really isn't an issue- if anyone EVER used regular SRM2s, they'd notice that it is really not that difficult to land your shots with them as often as you please.

Edited by Sephlock, 01 August 2013 - 01:45 AM.


#13 Corvus Antaka

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 01:57 AM

View PostSephlock, on 01 August 2013 - 01:43 AM, said:


*Btw, the homing really isn't an issue- if anyone EVER used regular SRM2s, they'd notice that it is really not that difficult to land your shots with them as often as you please.


Id say hitting a spider with 2 SRM2 is a lot harder than with 2 SSRM 2

#14 Royalewithcheese

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 05:21 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 01 August 2013 - 12:39 AM, said:

CLAN LRMS WILL COMPETELY ECLIPSE SSRM4 AND SSRM6.


QFT

Let's not balance the game around weapons that don't exist yet and will be meh-tier when they do.

#15 MaddMaxx

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 06:00 AM

First the SSRM2 was to good (got CT'd to death boo-hoo, fix it) Now it spreads it 2 piddly little missiles and it sucks (can't kill nothing boo-hoo)?

This place is some kind of brutal. And some say the WK's are bad. The Banner Boys are getting out of control. Make up your f'ing minds already. :)

#16 Zyllos

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 07:31 AM

I honestly think CLRMs will only fly directly straight for 180m then home in on a locked target.

This produces the effect that CLRMs no longer have minimum ranges but lose their ability to indirect fire.

If that is indeed the case, then CSSRMs will not be weaker than CLRMs due to having to aim with low velocity missiles.

Either way, I still think SSRMs do need to be increased to 2.0 regular SRMs. But PGI thinks fixing HSR (which I am not sure if they can) will make SRMs too good at 2.0 damage so this might never happen.

#17 stjobe

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:15 AM

Streaks are good as they are right now. They trade 0.5 damage per missile for not having to aim at all.

Remember, the weapon you need to compare it to is the mighty SRM-2: 2+2 damage, you have to aim it, and they can still miss due to spread.

In that light, does 1.5+1.5 damage guaranteed to hit really sound so bad?

SSRMs were silly over-powered before; so much so that they were instant win on a light versus a light without. No contest, even if it was a COM-2D versus a JR7, or a non-ECM Raven. I hope you all remember the ECM+SSRM RVN-3L? That was all the SSRMs doing. It was even great on lights versus heavies and assaults. Zip about, not needing to aim, and let your SSRMs core the CT of the target.

They should NEVER have been that good - in BattleTech, they are just a means of preserving ammo; nothing more, nothing less. They're a SRM-2 that doesn't fire unless it can hit. In game mechanic terms, if you missed your to-hit roll you got to keep your ammo, that's ALL it did.

I'm glad it's' been put in its proper place; it's supposed to be among the weakest of the missile weapons, and now it is. I'm sorry if you used it as a crutch, but those days are over.

Here's to the SSRM being in its rightful place at last, CHEERS!

#18 El Bandito

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:20 AM

1.5+1.5

View Poststjobe, on 01 August 2013 - 08:15 AM, said:

Streaks are good as they are right now. They trade 0.5 damage per missile for not having to aim at all. Remember, the weapon you need to compare it to is the mighty SRM-2: 2+2 damage, you have to aim it, and they can still miss due to spread. In that light, does 1.5+1.5 damage guaranteed to hit really sound so bad?


It is (1.5+ 1.5) / 7 BTW. Which means it is garbage. I prefer regular SRM2 cause I can at least know where my missile is going to hit in full.

#19 stjobe

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:31 AM

View PostEl Bandito, on 01 August 2013 - 08:20 AM, said:

1.5+1.5

It is (1.5+ 1.5) / 7 BTW. Which means it is garbage. I prefer regular SRM2 cause I can at least know where my missile is going to hit in full.

If it's the random spread you're talking about, it's no different than all the other missiles, who also have spread. One of the most broken things about the SSRM was that it was preferentially damaging CT. That's no longer true, and its spread is as random as any other missile.

Yes, it's "garbage". It's SUPPOSED to be "garbage". It's just two SRMs, for crying out loud. They're not supposed to be CT-seeking nukes.

#20 El Bandito

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 08:40 AM

View Poststjobe, on 01 August 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

If it's the random spread you're talking about, it's no different than all the other missiles, who also have spread. One of the most broken things about the SSRM was that it was preferentially damaging CT. That's no longer true, and its spread is as random as any other missile. Yes, it's "garbage". It's SUPPOSED to be "garbage". It's just two SRMs, for crying out loud. They're not supposed to be CT-seeking nukes.


Other missiles do not actively spread out and seek different locations, they tend to be bunched and hit 3-4 locations at most.

Weak argument there.





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