82 replies to this topic

[Tennex]

if i owned PGI i wouldn't make such crappy decisions.

[Odanan]

Butane9000, on 03 August 2013 - 09:05 AM, said:

[lot of stuff]

Wow, that's a lot of stuff to comment

Consumables/Command Console: very interesting.

Weapon Manufacturer Quirks: yes, durability is a good idea!

Battlemech Quirks: hmmm I wouldn't go that way.

Revised Experience Tree: using some of the things that work in MMOs could be fine.

Hardpoint Limits: MW4? Noooooooooooo.....

Game Modes: King of the Hill! I'm looking forward for something like that, but wouldn't all players choose only heavier mechs?

Maps: personally, I loved the last maps - they have the alien feel that was needed to the game.

Better Communication: communication is ALWAYS good.

Better Patching Schedule: whatever.

Mechs to add: see my other topic.

Tennex, on 03 August 2013 - 03:49 PM, said:

if i owned PGI i wouldn't make such crappy decisions.

Can you elaborate?

[Koniving]

Different manufacturers actually had much more difference, although damage, weight, and effective range were non-negotiable.

For example four AC/20s. There are 10 unique AC/20 variants, and on top of that there are 3 variants of one variant, and 2 variants of another, resulting in 15 total.

• The Devastator (only mountable on the King Crab and similar mechs but somehow is the only AC/20 we get) is a 203mm single shot cannon. The recoil on the Devastator is supposed to be so strong an Atlas must brace itself and remain stationary to fire it and even then it had a chance of falling over, thus it is only suitable for very short, reverse-jointed, long and wide framed bodies like the King Crab.
  
• The Chemjet Gun is a 185mm slow-firing 3 round burst. Its recoil is vicious but manageable by most mechs heavy mechs. The same weapon mounted on a Raven 4X would tear it's arm off and the mech itself would lose its footing.
  
• The Crusher Super Heavy Cannon has three variations, only two I'm directly familiar with.
  
  • One fires 10 AC/2-quality rounds at a rapid burst rate. Though the actual bullets would thusly have the range of an AC/2, the recoil would be so strong it wouldn't be very practical to use beyond the 270 range. This reloads using magazines and thus has a cooldown time.
    
  • The second fires them much slower, but with no pause and no cool down time. The recoil thusly is softer, too. It's basically an oversized, 14-ton slightly faster firing belt-fed AC/2. (0.4 seconds between shots).
• ​The Tomodzuru Autocannon Mount Type 20 Autocannon is found in your common Hunchback 4G. This is actually a 4-Shot Autocannon 20 which does a burst of 4 shots in about 1 second.

Here's the first three AC/20 variants demonstrated, with two versions of the Chemjet Gun as well.

The feedback so far is if we took the single shot AC/20 and made it 4 DPS while keeping the multi-shot version 5 DPS, we could allow all mechs to freely use the AC/20s in all variations while keeping them viable. But personally I would still restrict them to elevating tiers of mech size, because an AC/20 with the recoil to cause the Atlas using it to fall over should never be made available to a smaller mech.

In another video without the ability to demonstrate it, I talk about laser variant ideas, as there are 44 medium laser variants without counting variants of variants.


One of them turns out to exist in lore as a Bombast Laser, but I don't particularly like it. My own was an idea of introducing an instant-damage laser with a bit of skill behind it by charging ig up.

Of course... First and foremost on the fix list should be the heat capacity system. For our real problem click the spoiler.

Spoiler

The only reason giant multi-PPC mechs are even remotely viable is a misinterpretation of tabletop. They expanded the heat capacity, and it rises with every heatsink you add in.

How it works in lore: You take 10 double heatsinks. 30 capacity (limit to shutdown). Your cooling is 20 heat sunken per 10 seconds, which is 2 sunken per second.

How it works in MW2: You have 40 capacity. With 10 SHS you cool 1 per second, with 10 DHS you cool 2 per second. All weapons had very low heat levels. Balance issues.

How it works in MW3: You have 30 capacity. With 10 SHS you cool 1 per second. With 10 DHS you cool 2 per second. All weapons have canonical values. 3 ER PPCs causes you to explode due to reaching 150% heat capacity (45 heat). 2 ER PPCs cause you to shut down. Wide open maps and no cover still allowed a big calling for sniping.

How it works in MW4 (before Mektek): You have a capacity of 60. With 10 SHS you cool 1 per second. With 10 DHS you cool 2 per second. PPCs did something like 15 damage each, and boating became a big problem since although the heat was close to canonical values, the capacity is doubled. Abuse soon followed.

How it works in MWO:

• With 10 SHS you have a base 30 heat capacity + 10 = 40 heat capacity. You then have 1 cooling per second.
  
• With 10 DHS in the engine you have base 30 heat + 20 = 50 heat capacity on top of 2 per second cooling. The difference between the two the DHS is 2.5 times superior than SHS.
  
• With 10 DHS, but only 7 in the engine and 3 on the chassis, you have 7*2 + 3*1.4 = 18.2 + 30 base = 48.2. Then cooling is 1.82 per second as well. That guy with the 175 engine (20 ton light mechs anyone?) gets screwed out of heat capacity. The Blackjack gets screwed too because he can't have 10 DHS in the engine because it can't mount a 250 engine. Mediums and lights get screwed.
  
• With 22 DHS, 10 in the engine, a mech gets 30 base + 20 for 10 engine DHS + (1.4*12) 16.8 for the 12 chassis DHS = 66.8 capacity + 3.68 per second cooling rate.
  
• Now with the above 22 DHS in the same scenario with pilot unlocks at Master level.... 66.8 + (heat containment threshold increase 10% * 2 for 2x basics for an increase of 13.36) = 80.16 capacity! And then that's 3.68 + (Cool Run 7.5% *2 for 2x basics for an increase of 0.552) = 4.232 per second cooling rate.

​Let's compare that last rate to Tabletop at a per second rate...

22 DHS = 30 capacity. 2.2 cooling per second.

*Scratches chin.*
Think we have our balancing problem's root cause found out. But how to fix it?

Edited by Koniving, 03 August 2013 - 04:36 PM.

[Alex Warden]

the one thing i would change immediately would be the functionality of LRM´s. the least i would do, would be to delete the abilty for indirect fire, unless there is a NARC or TAG on a target. that would a) force people to actually put themselves in danger more often and b.) raise the incentive for cooperation between artillery and spotter.additionally make SSRMs follow the reticle. while i´m at it: add a "security lock" (cooldown) for alphastrikes. alphas should be the "last instance of emergency" and not normality...

2nd thing: remove Artillery/ Airstrike as a consumable. add modules for both spotters and commandmechs (would require to actually make some mech variants - for example the Atlas DDC -"Command Mechs" by giving them "command console hardpoints") which require a command console. those modules would allow: a)spotters/ recons to designate a target-area and b.) commandmechs to call in Air/Arty strikes to that area. i´d add WAY more boomboom effects to those strikes, and cause of the restrictions make them more devastating. i´d also add some more stuff linked with that console. (EWF, just one keyword).

3rd thing: no 3rd person,period. a freecam for spectatormode in random matches, maybe a nice killcam too

4th thing: make new gamemodes and maps a top priority. a huge variety of modes would have been one of my first goles for a MW title.

Edited by Alex Warden, 03 August 2013 - 05:07 PM.

[ArmandTulsen]

I wish you did own PGI. A lot of those changes would be awesome.

[Volthorne]

If I owned PGI the first order of business would be to install a rain barrel and tear-distillery in the server room.

[Mystere]

I'd do the following:

• shut down PGI as a corporate entity as soon as legally possible
  
• shut down all servers
  
• hire all ex-PGI developers as my personal staff and make them continue to develop the game with some changes from me
  
• turn MWO into my private game and let other people play with me BY INVITATION ONLY, free of charge and under the following conditions:
  
  • full dossier required for each player other than close friends and family
    
  • can be booted out from access to game without prior notice at my whim
    
  • whiners get a lifelong ban from the game

Edited by Mystere, 03 August 2013 - 11:03 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

shut down PGI as a corporate entity as soon as legally possible

thats all id do if I was the owner. would save everyone from so much frustration and grief and safeguard the battletech IP.

[Mystere]

Khobai, on 03 August 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:

thats all id do if I was the owner. would save everyone from so much frustration and grief and safeguard the battletech IP.

That's a very poor investment (i.e. buying PGI) then. I'd rather still play the game with people I personally approve of. Does that include you? I can't really say at this point in time. I will need to take a look at that dossier first before I decide.

[Helmer]

OP has nothing to do with gameplay balance, off to Forum Fun we go.



Cheers.


(And for the record I would set the Heat Scale to TT settings, and increase heat dissipation among other tweaks)

[Odanan]

Koniving, on 03 August 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Different manufacturers actually had much more difference, although damage, weight, and effective range were non-negotiable.

For example four AC/20s. There are 10 unique AC/20 variants, and on top of that there are 3 variants of one variant, and 2 variants of another, resulting in 15 total.

• The Devastator (only mountable on the King Crab and similar mechs but somehow is the only AC/20 we get) is a 203mm single shot cannon. The recoil on the Devastator is supposed to be so strong an Atlas must brace itself and remain stationary to fire it and even then it had a chance of falling over, thus it is only suitable for very short, reverse-jointed, long and wide framed bodies like the King Crab.
  
• The Chemjet Gun is a 185mm slow-firing 3 round burst. Its recoil is vicious but manageable by most mechs heavy mechs. The same weapon mounted on a Raven 4X would tear it's arm off and the mech itself would lose its footing.
  
• The Crusher Super Heavy Cannon has three variations, only two I'm directly familiar with.
  
  • One fires 10 AC/2-quality rounds at a rapid burst rate. Though the actual bullets would thusly have the range of an AC/2, the recoil would be so strong it wouldn't be very practical to use beyond the 270 range. This reloads using magazines and thus has a cooldown time.
    
  • The second fires them much slower, but with no pause and no cool down time. The recoil thusly is softer, too. It's basically an oversized, 14-ton slightly faster firing belt-fed AC/2. (0.4 seconds between shots).
• ​The Tomodzuru Autocannon Mount Type 20 Autocannon is found in your common Hunchback 4G. This is actually a 4-Shot Autocannon 20 which does a burst of 4 shots in about 1 second.

Here's the first three AC/20 variants demonstrated, with two versions of the Chemjet Gun as well.

The feedback so far is if we took the single shot AC/20 and made it 4 DPS while keeping the multi-shot version 5 DPS, we could allow all mechs to freely use the AC/20s in all variations while keeping them viable. But personally I would still restrict them to elevating tiers of mech size, because an AC/20 with the recoil to cause the Atlas using it to fall over should never be made available to a smaller mech.

Impressive! Simply impressive!
The main problem is PGI chose to treat Autocannons as single shot weapons (due to the lore being so dubious about how ACs work - how could they be a burst fire weapons and deal all damage to one location?). I think only MW3 had the bust fire approach...
(not that I'm complaining - I'm happy PGI chose the single shot feature for now)

Koniving, on 03 August 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

In another video without the ability to demonstrate it, I talk about laser variant ideas, as there are 44 medium laser variants without counting variants of variants.

One of them turns out to exist in lore as a Bombast Laser, but I don't particularly like it. My own was an idea of introducing an instant-damage laser with a bit of skill behind it by charging ig up.

Interesting... I was thinking in just smaller quirks for each manufacturer, but real variants are something to consider.

The only thing I'm afraid is that bust fire AC/20s will be too similar to boated smaller ACs and laser variants could narrow the difference between pulse and regular lasers...

Koniving, on 03 August 2013 - 04:32 PM, said:

Of course... First and foremost on the fix list should be the heat capacity system. For our real problem click the spoiler.

Spoiler

The only reason giant multi-PPC mechs are even remotely viable is a misinterpretation of tabletop. They expanded the heat capacity, and it rises with every heatsink you add in.

How it works in lore: You take 10 double heatsinks. 30 capacity (limit to shutdown). Your cooling is 20 heat sunken per 10 seconds, which is 2 sunken per second.

How it works in MW2: You have 40 capacity. With 10 SHS you cool 1 per second, with 10 DHS you cool 2 per second. All weapons had very low heat levels. Balance issues.

How it works in MW3: You have 30 capacity. With 10 SHS you cool 1 per second. With 10 DHS you cool 2 per second. All weapons have canonical values. 3 ER PPCs causes you to explode due to reaching 150% heat capacity (45 heat). 2 ER PPCs cause you to shut down. Wide open maps and no cover still allowed a big calling for sniping.

How it works in MW4 (before Mektek): You have a capacity of 60. With 10 SHS you cool 1 per second. With 10 DHS you cool 2 per second. PPCs did something like 15 damage each, and boating became a big problem since although the heat was close to canonical values, the capacity is doubled. Abuse soon followed.

How it works in MWO:

• With 10 SHS you have a base 30 heat capacity + 10 = 40 heat capacity. You then have 1 cooling per second.
  
• With 10 DHS in the engine you have base 30 heat + 20 = 50 heat capacity on top of 2 per second cooling. The difference between the two the DHS is 2.5 times superior than SHS.
  
• With 10 DHS, but only 7 in the engine and 3 on the chassis, you have 7*2 + 3*1.4 = 18.2 + 30 base = 48.2. Then cooling is 1.82 per second as well. That guy with the 175 engine (20 ton light mechs anyone?) gets screwed out of heat capacity. The Blackjack gets screwed too because he can't have 10 DHS in the engine because it can't mount a 250 engine. Mediums and lights get screwed.
  
• With 22 DHS, 10 in the engine, a mech gets 30 base + 20 for 10 engine DHS + (1.4*12) 16.8 for the 12 chassis DHS = 66.8 capacity + 3.68 per second cooling rate.
  
• Now with the above 22 DHS in the same scenario with pilot unlocks at Master level.... 66.8 + (heat containment threshold increase 10% * 2 for 2x basics for an increase of 13.36) = 80.16 capacity! And then that's 3.68 + (Cool Run 7.5% *2 for 2x basics for an increase of 0.552) = 4.232 per second cooling rate.

​Let's compare that last rate to Tabletop at a per second rate...

22 DHS = 30 capacity. 2.2 cooling per second.

*Scratches chin.*
Think we have our balancing problem's root cause found out. But how to fix it?

If the heat capacity was locked in 30 and only the dissipation changed with the number/type of heat sinks, wouldn't that work?


BTW: If I owned PGI, I would hire you!

[Odanan]

Helmer, on 04 August 2013 - 01:03 AM, said:

OP has nothing to do with gameplay balance, off to Forum Fun we go.

No, thank you?

Half of the items in the OP are about game balance... could you return the topic to where it was, please?

[Helmer]

Odanan, on 04 August 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

No, thank you?

Half of the items in the OP are about game balance... could you return the topic to where it was, please?

The Thread title is "If I Owned Pgi (Part Ii)" and asks users what they would do if they owned it. Although implicitly it may, this does not specifically have anything to do with Gameplay Balance.
I could easily answer the title with "I would move PGI to the Moon" and be on topic. The OP is a bit more specific in that it states "What would you do to make PGI better" , again "moving them to the Moon" answers the question.

If you would like to reword your question and the title to be more inline with a gameplay statement/question , then absolutely! (Just PM me, or I'll check back later)



Cheers!

[Odanan]

Helmer, on 04 August 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

The Thread title is "If I Owned Pgi (Part Ii)" and asks users what they would do if they owned it. Although implicitly it may, this does not specifically have anything to do with Gameplay Balance.
I could easily answer the title with "I would move PGI to the Moon" and be on topic. The OP is a bit more specific in that it states "What would you do to make PGI better" , again "moving them to the Moon" answers the question.

If you would like to reword your question and the title to be more inline with a gameplay statement/question , then absolutely! (Just PM me, or I'll check back later)

Ohh well... I don't feel this much like "Forum Fun"...
(maybe its better to have it in "General Discussions/Feature Suggestions"?)

[Helmer]

Metagame would be the only remotely related subforum. Moved.




Cheers.

[Odanan]

Helmer, on 04 August 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

Metagame would be the only remotely related subforum. Moved.

OK, thanks!

[Odanan]

So, the Goldenboy is out.... well... :/

[Emetivore]

I would scrap the project and hand the game over to a competent game developer that understands the concept of "Gameplay".

Maybe Paradox!

[Odanan]

Emetivore, on 08 August 2013 - 01:36 PM, said:

I would scrap the project and hand the game over to a competent game developer that understands the concept of "Gameplay".

Maybe Paradox!

I think they handled the game very well (specially if you consider how MW4 is a deformed MW in every aspect).

I agree, however, that 12 vs 12 did not help to improve the teamplay, at least in small maps. Maybe some maps should be locked for 8 vs 8?

Anyway, I added more suggestions to the OP. Please discuss.

[John MatriX82]

Nice thread Odanan, I agree with nearly everything on it. Especially for missile tube/launchers, It's ages I'm proposing some similar system (see sig).
About hardpoint restrictions, we need it. Every time I meet Garth ingame I hammer it with that, but PGI don't listen. Convergenge isn't the problem, it's excessive freedom, right now you're still free to slap 4 PPCs, but then how to explain that you'll have to deal with that huge heat penalty to non-forum reading players? Come on, heat penalties are silly, restrict the hardpoints.

SRMs aren't still there yet. The tube like firing pattern is absolutely SILLY. I'd like to have the old one back. At least you knew that at 150, 75m (and 50 to point blank) you could gather the higher concentration on the target, right now it's a dice roll, sometimes you hit the area of the mech you want to with more rockets than other times where you basically don't deal any damage that's useful.

LRMs: they are annoying due to absurd boating, that the heat penalty doesn't solve. Limit max LRMs to the max available tubes on the mechs.. see the sig. Few mechs could get 50 LRMs with my system, this would greatly help to balance that weapon system, making 50 LRMs deadly when used correctly, but also rendering much more useful 5-10/15 LRMs for the smaller mechs, that now are rather worthless due to reduced damage and greater effect of the AMS vs them.

Pulse lasers weight too much. It's good they have shorter beam duration, slight heat over non-pulse counterparts and even crippled range, but the weight is too nigh. Weight is their problem, not slight number tuning!! Lower their weight, they'll become an option. Why chose a LPL over a LL where the latter allows farther reach, less heat, 2 more DHSs? Or when using a light, adding just a couple of MPLs cripples heat management vs normal MLs.

Mech scaling is another big issue. I was looking forward the kintaro, I see GBs completely cored with the rest of the armor untouched go around too often, even more than Dragons or Awesomes do; it's like Jager's side torsoes, so no place for KTOs in my hangar anytime soon.

Base Capture Mechanics. Dear God is it so hard to place a few turrets in the base to defend it? And add a secondary objective that's farther away that has a power plant in it or a fire turret control center so that you basically have to destroy it to actually "unlock" the true base capture?

12vs12 AND 8vs8. Lock smaller maps to 8vs8, lock bigger maps to 12vs12, keep some maps to be available in both modes.
-12vs12: Terra Therma, Alpine Peaks, Tourmaline
-non restricted (they are available in both modes): Caustic Valley, Frozen Cities, Canyon Network
-8vs8: Forest Colonies, River Cities (this isn't tremendously bad in 12vs12, but forest absolutely is).

Edited by John MatriX82, 09 August 2013 - 06:18 AM.