23 replies to this topic

[Your Friend Mr Rogers]

For the record I do not own or have ever owned a mech using this sniper build. The only one I have that is close to this is a treb-7k with an er ppc and gauss. Now that I got that out of my system I just wanted to say.....

...I don't understand all the hatred for these builds. Every time I have been in a match against them, they are not very difficult to kill, and to avoid them I just used all the available cover on the map. In a way it adds almost a sniper class into the game. It convinces teams with shorter range weaponry to keep their heads down to the very last moment. If your team does end up losing to a team full of snipers they did not evolve to the type of match that was about to happen. People should not expect to run right up to sniper builds with their brawler builds and win the day. Teams with shorter range weaponry should let the sniper teams shorter range mechs lose their patience by waiting. Pick those mechs off one by one as they come to YOU, and eventually all that is left are the sniper builds. With your superior numbers it should be a simple enough task to close in on these mechs and destroy them. Also your team is bound to have sniper builds on it as well, so you can use those mechs to pin down their sniper builds while your brawler mechs move in for the kill. Now at this point you all are probably saying to yourself "well the only way anything you just explained would happen is if you were in a 12-man." You are exactly right. The thing I am trying to say is the problem is not with the game itself, but with its community. The MWO community's understanding of having to evolve in a match or be killed is very poor. I would say the only thing wrong with the actual game as far as "balance" goes is not weaponry, but a lack of an efficient way for pugs to communicate.


These specialty builds such as the sniper builds, or the brawler type builds give MWO character, and makes you really have to think in game about how you are going to defeat a certain team once you have information about some of their mech's loadouts. To me it makes the game very exciting when you bring up an enemy mechs loadout, and see ppc+ppc+gauss because you think "oh sh*t better take cover." It is really awesome to actually have a game where you really have to think before you act, and it is really fun!

So I guess what I am really trying to say to you is would you...

A. Rather see all of the same balanced builds that you could just run straight up to and shoot at, or....
B. See a bunch of specialty builds running around on the battlefield that you have to react to in various ways!


P.S. I see other builds then the typical sniper build in combat all the time. Before you say "but all I ever see is the sniper build."

P.S.S. I have been rolled by teams that just charge with their brawlers, and we had plenty of snipers.(teams with mostly brawlers do not have an unfair advantage, trust me)

[Stardancer01]

I don’t mind the normal PPC because you can sneak using cover well into 90m of it and you’ve cut its firepower in half. It’s the ER-PPC that gives such a huge range tactical advantage. If the ER-PPC had a longer recharge/reload/cool down time compared to the normal PPC it would account for its similar weight as well as giving an advantage to those that have taken a huge risk in darting form cover to cover across no man’s land under sniper fire. Same goes for er-lasers.

[Dreamslave]

You expect random pug players to "wait"? Is this your first day playing MWO?

[Your Friend Mr Rogers]

Dreamslave, on 09 August 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

You expect random pug players to "wait"? Is this your first day playing MWO?

Don't comment unless you have read the entire OP and understand.

Thank you!

[Your Friend Mr Rogers]

Stardancer01, on 09 August 2013 - 08:39 AM, said:

I don’t mind the normal PPC because you can sneak using cover well into 90m of it and you’ve cut its firepower in half. It’s the ER-PPC that gives such a huge range tactical advantage. If the ER-PPC had a longer recharge/reload/cool down time compared to the normal PPC it would account for its similar weight as well as giving an advantage to those that have taken a huge risk in darting form cover to cover across no man’s land under sniper fire. Same goes for er-lasers.

When I wrote this I meant it to be for both ER and normal PPCs, I understand what you are saying, but you have to put yourself in a position to be able to brawl their brawlers and be out of sight of their snipers. In other words wait behind cover and be patient. If you are going to go hunt down snipers make sure you have multiple people with you, because an overwhelmed sniper is a useless sniper.

[Graufalk]

I want to know what game you're playing where Brawlers outnumber Snipers.

[Your Friend Mr Rogers]

Graufalk, on 09 August 2013 - 08:32 PM, said:

I want to know what game you're playing where Brawlers outnumber Snipers.

MWO...

...It has actually happened and it was a fun game! Also I am not saying it happens all the time.

you are referring to the P.S.S. right?

[D A T A]

we need to shoot 3 ppc without heat penality

[Marmon Rzohr]

+1

The meta isn't set in stone and a lot of frustration can be avoided if players put their head into the game rather than just keep doing what they have always done and give up when it stops working

High alpha boating did need a nerf though because some builds didn't make any sense but were very effective with very little effort. This is especially true because it was far too overwhelming in competitive drops. 3 6 PPC stalkers coul just coordinate fire and blow most things up in a single savlo, for instance. There was very little possible counterplay.

The way things are now i don't think ppc+gauss builds are op. I think they're just fine. But time (and tournaments) will tell.

Edited by Marmon Rzohr, 11 August 2013 - 03:26 PM.

[AimRobot]

Because this is the logic, the players of MWO is going for.
Somehow the top one is hardest.

[Your Friend Mr Rogers]

I am very glad to see some people are starting to see the point i am trying to make.

[Erata]

Your Friend Mr Rogers, on 11 August 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

I am very glad to see some people are starting to see the point i am trying to make.

Most of the ~meta~ builds run as efficiently, if not moreso than brawling builds. The reason people hate them is because they shouldn't remain competitive inside a brawler-oriented build's optimal range, but they do. On top of that, they can hit well outside of the maximum range of the brawler.

That is the shortest reason I can provide to explain why people don't like fighting them.

If you would like to make a build, then use smurfy's or mechromancer and start comparing the sustainable DPS tables of same mechs, or common mechs, using Sniper-oriented builds and Brawler-oriented builds so that you can see for yourself what I'm yacking about.

[riverslq]

it doesn't matter if ELO screws up or not,
its how many ppcs and gauss are on each team
thats what should be balanced. <cough cough>
******* idiots.

Edited by riverslq, 12 August 2013 - 09:51 PM.

[Sephlock]

AimRobot, on 11 August 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Because this is the logic, the players of MWO is going for.
Somehow the top one is hardest.

You forgot the missile lock icon.

[Archon Adam Steiner]

An individual 1x Gauss, 2x PPC 'mech, in the hands of the average pilot... is not dangerous.

A team full of them, in the hands of top-flight marksmen, piloting large 'mechs... is hell. Boring hell, I should say.

In the top ELO brackets and tournament play, this build predominates; without exaggeration, there isn't a single top-end team that we in my tournament regiment have come across that does NOT rely on this Meta to an extreme extent; there are even 'brawlers' on the other team that mount this build, possibly with some smaller supplementary weapons along for the ride.

Fundamentally, when a certain 'cookie cutter' build dominates competitive play, that means that other builds just can't cut it. Competitive players (including my team) are going to eventually sacrifice their pride in order to simply stay competitive, and that's a shame. There is always going to be a 'best' build, or 'the best' weapon, but the degree to which that build or that weapon is 'the best' is the matter in question. In games like EVE: Online or World of Warcraft, parity is very close (for the most part). There may be a 'best' build/weapon, but in the hands of a good pilot, alternatives are considered entirely viable, and in given circumstances even superior. MWO has no such reality, at present. There are no equal counters to this Meta, nor ones that come even close. If one team that relatively 'lacks' for PPC/gauss players beats a team that has lots of them, it's usually due to a large skill discrepancy as opposed to superior load-out.

[MaddMaxx]

Erata, on 12 August 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:

Most of the ~meta~ builds run as efficiently, if not moreso than brawling builds. The reason people hate them is because they shouldn't remain competitive inside a brawler-oriented build's optimal range, but they do. On top of that, they can hit well outside of the maximum range of the brawler.

That is the shortest reason I can provide to explain why people don't like fighting them.

snip

That sounds like you wish your Brawler, after getting to said Sniper, that it should be defenseless? Is you brawler defenseless outside its brawling range?

There is only one chassis that is defenseless when the range is closed. You know it well.

Every other chassis has choices as to how to defend itself based on its range load-out, until it reaches that sweet spot. i bet you can guess what that defense is as well.

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

If one team that relatively 'lacks' for PPC/Gauss players beats a team that has lots of them, it's usually due to a large skill discrepancy as opposed to superior load-out.

Sounds like you found the actual "counter" without realizing it.

[Zolaz]

There will always be a meta. Get that through your head. QQing about it will not change it. PGI sure as hell can not fix it. The ghost heat "solution" is proof enough of that.

You can either bang your head against the wall while yelling and screaming on the forums OR you can use what works. Act crazy or be rational, the choice is yours.

[Shakespeare]

Arrachtas, on 12 August 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

An individual 1x Gauss, 2x PPC 'mech, in the hands of the average pilot... is not dangerous.

A team full of them, in the hands of top-flight marksmen, piloting large 'mechs... is hell. Boring hell, I should say.

In the top ELO brackets and tournament play, this build predominates; without exaggeration, there isn't a single top-end team that we in my tournament regiment have come across that does NOT rely on this Meta to an extreme extent; there are even 'brawlers' on the other team that mount this build, possibly with some smaller supplementary weapons along for the ride.

Fundamentally, when a certain 'cookie cutter' build dominates competitive play, that means that other builds just can't cut it. Competitive players (including my team) are going to eventually sacrifice their pride in order to simply stay competitive, and that's a shame. There is always going to be a 'best' build, or 'the best' weapon, but the degree to which that build or that weapon is 'the best' is the matter in question. In games like EVE: Online or World of Warcraft, parity is very close (for the most part). There may be a 'best' build/weapon, but in the hands of a good pilot, alternatives are considered entirely viable, and in given circumstances even superior. MWO has no such reality, at present. There are no equal counters to this Meta, nor ones that come even close. If one team that relatively 'lacks' for PPC/gauss players beats a team that has lots of them, it's usually due to a large skill discrepancy as opposed to superior load-out.

You got it in one, and this is the resistance NightWatch is encountering - we've been having some great nights in the 12v12 queue, but when we end up dropping against a team of 7 highlanders and fracts plus light support, that's when we get bled to death - we don't play that way. It's lazy, we don't gain anything from it. I see a lot of teams shying away from a pure sniper team, to their credit - but it's boredom driving that change, not balance. We all know what an optimized team looks like...and the reason that it's not 100% like that is that it really isn't fun to play for long periods, and because winning right now gets you some c-bills and a pat on the back.

Neither of those particulars is a balancing mechanic, and if it continues unhindered into CW (whereupon winning becomes a big deal), then the teams that climb to the top will be the ones stacking 2PPC1Gauss, with some lights as backup. no question.

It even happens in the PUG queue - the build is so common, you can see two unrelated lances drop in almost the exact same configuration... and suddenly you've got one team with a preset battle plan, and one team that may as well be flip-up targets in a carnival game. I've seen turkey shoots some nights, it's ugly.

It's not the end of the world, and 12's has shaken things up, but it will not take long for the typical movement patterns on the maps we've got to stabilize - and with it, the most direct route to victory. Even teams that don't PPC/Gauss up to 11 still have to make concessions to this form of gameplay...for instance, our drop deck almost never includes mediums, and we bring a few 3Ds to flank out and snipe. More than 2 or three, though, and I need a shower afterward. It's just not satisfying. For now, while wins are still a temporary benefit, we'd rather limit ourselves a bit and have much more interesting games. That's not gonna cut it forever.

[Bhael Fire]

Never had a problem with ANY of the balance "issues" some players seem to be having with PPCs. Ever. That goes for the 2xPPC+1 Gauss builds too.




There are far more problematic things in the game.