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Tanks (Combat Vehicles)


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#21 Koniving

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 08:30 PM

View PostRoosterfish, on 12 August 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

I don't really care much about afv's, infantry, or aerotech's for this game but I'd love to stomp around River City crushing all the cars and trucks. Being able to destroy terrain, ie buildings would be cool to.


A pipe dream once promised around launch. I think realistically it will be a while after launch before it comes in.

Specifically it was defined something along the lines of damaging buildings, destroying vehicles and props. No holes in the terrain.

Edited by Koniving, 12 August 2013 - 08:33 PM.


#22 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 09:37 PM

tanks would fail with this Heat/Cyclic system. Tanks are 100% heat neutral. Zero Heat on Ballistics & Missiles, and energy weapons must be sinked to vent all heat. Ghost Heat would be a beach cause mech would be hit with it but Tanks would not. UNLESS PGI ignores that Mechanic.

#23 Thomas Covenant

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 09:47 PM

@Joseph Mallan if tanks would be too powerful they could nerf them to scale to the mech-to-tank combat value of the battletech lore. If we said it wouldn't be realistic to every inconvenient incosistancy, we wouldn't have walking battlemechs most likely.

#24 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 10:07 PM

It would be quite the hella Nerf to make em work. Also many Hover tanks operate at speeds that would make Jenners look slow. So there are game Mechanics that stand in the way besides Sinks right now. Plus how would players react to Multiple tanks packing 3 LRM20s or 10 SRM6? Tanks with AC20 that are as fast as Jenners?

#25 Koniving

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 10:25 PM

Heat neutrality in tabletop, is being at 0 heat at the end of a turn even after you fired your weapons. That's fire once, and in 10 seconds you're at zero again.

Say you generate 10 heat. With ten heatsinks you'd be at 0 again in 10 seconds, losing heat at a rate of 1 heat per second. (10 heatsinks / 10 = 0.1 cooling per second per heatsink).

For MWO, to be heat neutral you'd have to be at zero when you fire again. Don't think we'll have a problem with regular tank designs being truly heat neutral, except with the AC/20 build (as you can only fire once every 4 seconds) so it'd be easy to be heat neutral.

An AC/20 generates 6 heat once every 4 seconds in MWO. To be heat neutral you'd have to sink 6 heat within 4 seconds. That'd be 1.5 heat per second. 15 SHS would keep you heat neutral with only an AC/20 in a period of 4 seconds. If you had 2 AC/20s, you'd need 30 SHS to be heat neutral within time to fire again.

A medium laser in MWO generates 4 heat over the span of 1 second with a wait time of 3 (so in reality, it has a slow heat build up over 1 second, but basically once every 4 seconds you fire so for simplicity we'll say 4 heat per shot). AC/20 + medium laser and every 4 seconds you'd need to have 20 SHS or 10 DHS to keep heat neutral.

Now if that medium laser fired 1 second faster... That's 4 heat every 3 seconds + 6 heat every 4 seconds. So at the smallest interval we could measure this is 6, 8, or 12..

At 6 seconds we'd have generated 14 heat.
At 8 seconds we'd have generated 20 heat (second AC/20 + 2 ML shots).
At 12, we've fired the AC/20 3 times and the ML 4 times. That's 18 in AC/20 heat and 12 in ML heat.
To sink that heat we'd need 30 heatsinks and then we'd need up until 14 seconds to make sure it's all sunken to 0 (which we'd need that time as in order to sink the heat, we must first make the heat. Even at a rate of 3 heat sunken per second [basically the ML heat would be almost completely dissipated the moment the beam stopped], an AC/20 spikes your heat by 6 instantly, requiring 2 seconds minimum after firing it to cool to zero). By then we'll be ready to fire another ML.

So heat neutrality is a difficult thing to accomplish, and in doing so you've made sacrifices in what you could have carried. Say more lasers, more PPCs, more missiles, etc. At least you'll have a decent engine.

Edited by Koniving, 12 August 2013 - 10:46 PM.


#26 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 10:38 PM

View PostKoniving, on 12 August 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

Heat neutrality in tabletop, is being at 0 heat at the end of a turn even after you fired your weapons. That's fire once, and in 10 seconds you're at zero again.

Say you generate 10 heat. With ten heatsinks you'd be at 0 again in 10 seconds, losing heat at a rate of 1 heat per second. (10 heatsinks / 10 = 0.1 cooling per second per heatsink).

For MWO, to be heat neutral you'd have to be at zero when you fire again. Don't think we'll have a problem with that, except with the AC/20 build (as you can only fire once every 4 seconds).

An AC/20 generates 6 heat once every 4 seconds in MWO. To be heat neutral you'd have to sink 6 heat within 4 seconds. That'd be 1.5 heat per second. 15 SHS would keep you heat neutral with only an AC/20 in a period of 4 seconds. If you had 2 AC/20s, you'd need 30 SHS to be heat neutral within time to fire again.

A medium laser in MWO generates 4 heat over the span of 1 second with a wait time of 3 (so in reality, it has a slow heat build up over 1 second, but basically once every 4 seconds you fire so for simplicity we'll say 4 heat per shot). AC/20 + medium laser and every 4 seconds you'd need to have 20 SHS or 10 DHS to keep heat neutral.

Ballistic & Missile tanks with ICE engines have no sinks (Like the Demolisher, LRM Carrier & SRM Carrier). Energy vehicles would only be allowed to fire once every 10 seconds... a decidedly devastating weakness Compared to a Mech. Interesting concept Koniving.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 12 August 2013 - 10:39 PM.


#27 Koniving

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 10:47 PM

Went on to further elaborate, but I'm going by how the mechanics work in MWO.

Also, I haven't found a single tank yet that doesn't have heatsinks... Bulldog has 8. Moltke Battle Tank has 10... Got a name for one that does not have heatsinks?

Edited by Koniving, 12 August 2013 - 10:52 PM.


#28 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 05:15 PM

View PostKoniving, on 12 August 2013 - 10:47 PM, said:

Went on to further elaborate, but I'm going by how the mechanics work in MWO.

Also, I haven't found a single tank yet that doesn't have heatsinks... Bulldog has 8. Moltke Battle Tank has 10... Got a name for one that does not have heatsinks?

2750
kanga
3039:
APC
Warrior-H7 Attack Helicopter
Harassser Missile Platform
Scorpion Light tank
Sea Skimmer Hydrofoil
Karnov UR Transport
Saladin Assault Hover Tank (AC20 with a 129 Kph Top speed)
Saracen
Scimitar
Striker
Hetzer
Maxim
Vedette
LRM Carrier
SRM Carrier
Pike (3 AC2s)
Demolisher
Partisan
Sturmfeur (2 LRM20s)
Behemoth
3058
Maultier
Blizzard
Cavalry Attack Helicopter
Kestrel VTOL
Yellow jacket Gunship (VTOL)
Plainsman Medium Hover
Goblin
Po Heavy Tank
Zhukov


Pick one. :D

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 August 2013 - 05:27 PM.


#29 Zarlaren

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 05:34 PM

View Postmwhighlander, on 06 August 2013 - 08:23 PM, said:


There are a couple of good fusion powered tanks that would give an Atlas a run for its money. Namely the 80 ton demolisher and 100 ton demolisher II

More firepower, more armor and better ground speed and a FAR lower profile than an Atlas, at the cost of not being able to move around the super rugged terrain very well. Tanks in the BT universe are 9/10 times on par with battlemechs, at the cost of needing a crew of 3-5 and on the positive side of being often significantly cheaper.

I would not be against having fusion powered tanks and hovercraft able to be piloted by players, but lesser combat vehicles, turrets and Aerofighter should (if ever implemented) remain as AI fodder.


My vote is on the Atlas the tank does not have the mobility as the Atlas does. The tank is at the mercy of rough terrain and could possibly break a tread if it runs over something it shouldn't like sharp rocks or a large pothole. Mechs don't have that problem they can just walk over it.

#30 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 05:37 PM

View PostZarla, on 13 August 2013 - 05:34 PM, said:


My vote is on the Atlas the tank does not have the mobility as the Atlas does. The tank is at the mercy of rough terrain and could possibly break a tread if it runs over something it shouldn't like sharp rocks or a large pothole. Mechs don't have that problem they can just walk over it.

first Demolisher is a ICE. IF they keep Vehicles heat free using Ballistics & Missiles a Demolisher with 2 AC20s would eat an Atlas alive.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 August 2013 - 05:37 PM.


#31 Koniving

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 05:44 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 13 August 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

2750
kanga
3039:
APC
Warrior-H7 Attack Helicopter
Harassser Missile Platform
Scorpion Light tank
Sea Skimmer Hydrofoil
Karnov UR Transport
Saladin Assault Hover Tank (AC20 with a 129 Kph Top speed)
Saracen
Scimitar
Striker
Hetzer
Maxim
Vedette
LRM Carrier
SRM Carrier
Pike (3 AC2s)
Demolisher
Partisan
Sturmfeur (2 LRM20s)
Behemoth
3058
Maultier
Blizzard
Cavalry Attack Helicopter
Kestrel VTOL
Yellow jacket Gunship (VTOL)
Plainsman Medium Hover
Goblin
Po Heavy Tank
Zhukov


Pick one. :D


Hm. Quite curious. Yeah I'm not sure how MWO would apply those without giving them heatsinks. After all Paul has this huge thing against heat neutral builds regardless of how much you must sacrifice to make it possible in a real time mechwarrior 3 (MWO) environment.

#32 Zarlaren

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 05:50 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 13 August 2013 - 05:37 PM, said:

first Demolisher is a ICE. IF they keep Vehicles heat free using Ballistics & Missiles a Demolisher with 2 AC20s would eat an Atlas alive.


Only if the Atlas stands there like a statue and takes it like a punching bag. I'm pretty sure a good Atlas pilot can defeat a Demolisher one or two variants. That is one rule in mech fighting you stand still you die if you keep moving you live.

#33 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 05:55 PM

View PostZarla, on 13 August 2013 - 05:50 PM, said:


Only if the Atlas stands there like a statue and takes it like a punching bag. I'm pretty sure a good Atlas pilot can defeat a Demolisher one or two variants. That is one rule in mech fighting you stand still you die if you keep moving you live.
You do know an Demolisher is as fast as an Atlas right?
Guess it depends on the player. The Demolisher is not an open field Tank, it is a City brawler. Also it as enough armor to live until the Atlas Over heats :D

Now you want a tank to take an Atlas 7 days a week... Alacorn. 3 Gauss baby!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 August 2013 - 05:59 PM.


#34 Zarlaren

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 06:02 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 13 August 2013 - 05:55 PM, said:

You do know an Demolisher is as fast as an Atlas right?
Guess it depends on the player. The Demolisher is not an open field Tank, it is a City brawler. Also it as enough armor to live until the Atlas Over heats :D

Now you want a tank to take an Atlas 7 days a week... Alacorn. 3 Gauss baby!


When that day comes is when I want this mech. http://www.sarna.net...28BattleMech%29

#35 Koniving

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 06:10 PM

Since it's semi related.. Most AC/20s are not single shot. Only the Devastator is. Which supposedly only certain specific tanks, the King Crab, and a UAC/20 version of it for the Cauldron Born.

This vid has some popular AC/20 variants demonstrated: The Crusher and the Chemjet Gun.


Summary Feedback on the idea is to keep the single shot (Devastator) AC/20, but make it 4 DPS (5 second reload time) while keeping the multi-shot versions 5 DPS (1 trigger pull every 4 seconds, with various burst and cooldown lengths). About even votes on which firing rate for the Chemjet version.

#36 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 06:19 PM

View PostZarla, on 13 August 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:


When that day comes is when I want this mech. http://www.sarna.net...28BattleMech%29

That Mech doesn't sow up til 3070s :D

View PostKoniving, on 13 August 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

Since it's semi related.. Most AC/20s are not single shot. Only the Devastator is. Which supposedly only certain specific tanks, the King Crab, and a UAC/20 version of it for the Cauldron Born.

This vid has some popular AC/20 variants demonstrated: The Crusher and the Chemjet Gun.


Summary Feedback on the idea is to keep the single shot (Devastator) AC/20, but make it 4 DPS (5 second reload time) while keeping the multi-shot versions 5 DPS (1 trigger pull every 4 seconds, with various burst and cooldown lengths). About even votes on which firing rate for the Chemjet version.

RAC 20 on a tank... That is just Sick! between 40-120 damage (SRM6 tables had a 2-6 Missile spread) :rolleyes:

Demolisher II could carry 2 with a good supply of ammo too. with No Heat!!!

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 August 2013 - 06:21 PM.


#37 Koniving

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 06:20 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 13 August 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

That Mech doesn't sow up til 3070s :D
RAC 20 on a tank... That is just Sick! between 40-120 damage (SRM6 tables had a 2-6 Missile spread) :rolleyes:

Indeed. Though the AC/20s demonstrated above are just regulars ideal for assault, heavy and medium mechs of humanoid shapes. Since according to some fluff, the single shot Devastator AC/20 can't be used on humanoid mechs (can't move while shooting, must brace, loses balance). Sadly the info's just fluff. Would be neat to apply it to tabletop and/or megamek.

Edited by Koniving, 13 August 2013 - 06:22 PM.


#38 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 06:39 PM

View PostKoniving, on 13 August 2013 - 06:20 PM, said:

Indeed. Though the AC/20s demonstrated above are just regulars ideal for assault, heavy and medium mechs of humanoid shapes. Since according to some fluff, the single shot Devastator AC/20 can't be used on humanoid mechs (can't move while shooting, must brace, loses balance). Sadly the info's just fluff. Would be neat to apply it to tabletop and/or megamek.

The only weapon like you describe is the Heavy Gauss. Its recoil could knock even an Assault on its behind. That I know of.

Sandy Porter had problems with her Hunchback

#39 Koniving

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 06:53 PM

View PostJoseph Mallan, on 13 August 2013 - 06:39 PM, said:

The only weapon like you describe is the Heavy Gauss. Its recoil could knock even an Assault on its behind. That I know of.

Sandy Porter had problems with her Hunchback

Fluff-wise, was in a book with pre-clan tech. Not tabletop rules. Though I wish it was.
Would love to see that happen to a twin AC/20 Jager. It'd make a lot more sense than a heat penalty.

Jager uses twin AC/20. Double-BAM! Jager fell on its back!

Edited by Koniving, 13 August 2013 - 06:55 PM.


#40 Joseph Mallan

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 07:17 PM

View PostKoniving, on 13 August 2013 - 06:53 PM, said:

Fluff-wise, was in a book with pre-clan tech. Not tabletop rules. Though I wish it was.
Would love to see that happen to a twin AC/20 Jager. It'd make a lot more sense than a heat penalty.

Jager uses twin AC/20. Double-BAM! Jager fell on its back!

We can have this IF we can have the target get planted on its buttox when hit with 40 damage or more :D





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