34 replies to this topic

[Captain Stiffy]

Take the good ol' medium laser.

Tons: 1
Range: 270/540
Heat: 4
Damage: 5
Duration: 1
Cooldown: 3
Damage per second: 1.25
Damage per heat: 1.25
DPS per ton: 1.25

Now the Medium garbage pulse laser:

Tons: 2
Range: 180/260 (66% that of a medium laser)
Heat: 5
Damage: 6
Duration: .75
Cooldown: 3
Damage per second: 1.6
Damage per heat: 1.2
DPS per ton: .8

The key is the effectiveness of the weapon per ton.
You have 6 tons on a JR7-F for weapons give or take a ton. I use that mech as an example because it has only energy hard points so it's very likely to have pilots run into this choice. Let's consider the options;

6 Medium Lasers (6 tons)
Damage Per Second: 7.5
Alpha Heat: 24
Alpha Damage: 30

or

3 Medium Money-Sink Lasers (6 tons)
Damage Per Second: 4.8
Alpha Heat: 17 (75% of the ML)
Alpha Damage: 18 (60% of the ML)

The damage-to-weight ratio for the MPL is way off. I'd like to see the MPL reduced to 1.5 tons or even 1.25 tons. I realize that nothing else in the game comes to quarter-tons but this is easily used for or taken from armor.

4 1.5 ton Medium Pulse Lasers (6 tons)
Damage Per Second: 6.4 (86% of ML)
Alpha Heat: 20 (83% of the ML)
Alpha Damage: 24 (80% of the ML)

5 1.25 ton Medium Pulse Lasers (6.25 tons) - if you adjust for the extra .25 tons it's almost exactly even.
Damage Per Second: 8 (106% of the ML)
Alpha Heat: 25 (104% of the ML)
Alpha Damage: 30 (125% of the ML)

TLDR;

Medium Pulse Lasers weight too much to be worth equipping. They need to be reduced to 1.5 or 1.25 tons.

Edited by Captain Stiffy, 18 July 2013 - 03:37 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

Actually, ideally.... the Pulse Laser line should fire like poor man's PPCs.

Up-front one-shot damage - but a really fast recycle time per shot. Its manageable heat still generates fast, but you can easily control how fast of a burst you do.


Outside that... keep the cannon physical size. That's like the one thing PGI hasn't outright screwed over yet on things, I'd like to keep it that way.

[General Taskeen]

Its not that medium pulse lasers are too "heavy" its that their core mechanics are not imagined so well in-game.

[Aim64C]

I've actually found medium pulse lasers to be very effective. In a battery of 6 of them on a BJ-1X, they really make the difference in high-speed encounters, particularly against lights.

Though I would say that they should all deal their damage over 0.5 seconds and/or have their range adjusted to be equivalent to standard lasers.

[Orzorn]

General Taskeen, on 18 July 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Its not that medium pulse lasers are too "heavy" its that their core mechanics are not imagined so well in-game.

This.

Pulse lasers have poor mechanics. My suggestion was to split their damage into packets that are instantly dealt. So a 0.75 second burn with 6 pulses of one damage each would pulse every 0.125 seconds, dealing those 1 damage packages instantly.

I also sort of like Unbound Inferno's idea of having pulse lasers do a single instant pulse that deals their damage, but that might be a bit too strong.

[Captain Stiffy]

If we're talking changes I'd like to see them be more like the AC/2 and deal appropriate damage for ROF.

[Unbound Inferno]

Captain Stiffy, on 18 July 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:

If we're talking changes I'd like to see them be more like the AC/2 and deal appropriate damage for ROF.

Per shot you mean? Cause you know although the AC-2 is no longer junk it isn't balanced correctly.

[SteelWarrior]

Its based on TT stats.....they get a bonus to hit in BT. In game they are great for killing faster mechs because of the "pulse"

[One Medic Army]

Unbound Inferno, on 18 July 2013 - 03:38 PM, said:

Actually, ideally.... the Pulse Laser line should fire like poor man's PPCs.

Up-front one-shot damage - but a really fast recycle time per shot. Its manageable heat still generates fast, but you can easily control how fast of a burst you do.

Outside that... keep the cannon physical size. That's like the one thing PGI hasn't outright screwed over yet on things, I'd like to keep it that way.

I agree.
Right now easy to aim equates to fast projectile speed and frontloaded damage.
Since Pulse Lasers are balanced around being easier to aim than normal lasers, they should be far superior at frontloading damage compared to normal lasers.

Actually giving them half the cooldown, half the damage, but all damage up front might make them fun to try out.
Of course having something that's hitscan and frontloaded like that might cause aimbotting/cockpitting issues.

Edited by One Medic Army, 18 July 2013 - 04:47 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

One Medic Army, on 18 July 2013 - 04:45 PM, said:

I agree.
Right now easy to aim equates to fast projectile speed and frontloaded damage.
Since Pulse Lasers are balanced around being easier to aim than normal lasers, they should be far superior at frontloading damage compared to normal lasers.

Actually giving them half the cooldown, half the damage, but all damage up front might make them fun to try out.
Of course having something that's hitscan and frontloaded like that might cause aimbotting/cockpitting issues.

I was actually think about 25% damage, but quad level recharge.

The SPL for example would fire almost as fast as the AC-2.

Edited by Unbound Inferno, 18 July 2013 - 05:12 PM.

[One Medic Army]

Unbound Inferno, on 18 July 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

I was actually think about 25% damage, but quad level recharge.

The SPL for example would fire almost as fast as the AC-2.

That'd work too, really I think the game would benefit from more options when it comes to high-refire weaponry.

Right now we've got lots of Fire, (hold beam), twist away/duck behind cover for cooldown, fire again.
The only things I can think of right now that really have a continuous fire are AC/2, Flamers, and MGs, and AC/5s a bit (1.5sec isn't really enough time to duck or twist).

Edited by One Medic Army, 18 July 2013 - 05:14 PM.

[A Man In A Can]

Orzorn, on 18 July 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

My suggestion was to split their damage into packets that are instantly dealt. So a 0.75 second burn with 6 pulses of one damage each would pulse every 0.125 seconds, dealing those 1 damage packages instantly.

You do realize they already do this, right? Except all pulse lasers break up the damage into 5 concentrated pulses that hit instantly within their burn times.

The MPL does 5 bursts of 1.2 damage every .15 seconds up to .75 seconds
The ML roughly translated does 30 bursts of .167 damage every .033 seconds up to 1 second

[Hauser]

Last word from the developers was that all pulse lasers will get a balance pass in the near future. I reckon these issues will be addressed by then.

Edited by Hauser, 18 July 2013 - 05:34 PM.

[Captain Stiffy]

Unbound Inferno, on 18 July 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

Per shot you mean? Cause you know although the AC-2 is no longer junk it isn't balanced correctly.

Yes. I mean that it would have a very short cooldown.

[Miekael]

I agree with Inferno, they should either be front loaded damage, or have a beam time of like .25 secs, followed by a slight RoF increase. I think this would do a better job at representing their bonus from TT. Changing heat and damage for the pulse lasers I feel will just unbalance them further.

Ideally this could turn them into a short range striker/brawler weapon with higher risk/reward over the standard lasers, giving players an option for their builds.

[Matthew Ace]

CYBRN4CR, on 18 July 2013 - 05:33 PM, said:

You do realize they already do this, right? Except all pulse lasers break up the damage into 5 concentrated pulses that hit instantly within their burn times. The MPL does 5 bursts of 1.2 damage every .15 seconds up to .75 seconds The ML roughly translated does 30 bursts of .167 damage every .033 seconds up to 1 second

Nope... the pulses is just a graphics thing. They work exactly like regular lasers, but with shorter burn time.

[Asakara]

I thought I heard PGI was considering making pulse lasers fire constantly like a machine gun as long as you hold the trigger and do not overheat.

Edit: Link to the podcast - Comment is just before the 26 minute mark (Garth typed it in chat):

http://www.nogutsnog...opic,486.0.html

Edited by Asakara, 18 July 2013 - 08:17 PM.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

General Taskeen, on 18 July 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Its not that medium pulse lasers are too "heavy" its that their core mechanics are not imagined so well in-game.

This, the weapon has literally the same exact fire mechanic in every way except...

The tonnage is too high, and heat is higher -- all at half the range.


The result, a pos weapon.


Edit: Keep the weapon weight the same, give it a new fire mechanic so its actually a different weapon.

Edited by mwhighlander, 18 July 2013 - 08:17 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

General Taskeen, on 18 July 2013 - 03:39 PM, said:

Its not that medium pulse lasers are too "heavy" its that their core mechanics are not imagined so well in-game.

Yes this is true. A pulse laser is suppose to be hightly accurate compared to all weapons and more damaging than a standard laser at the expense of weight and range. Just changing up the beam duration from 1 second to 0.75 seconds doesn't really mean much overall.

Perhaps Pulse Lasers should fire an actual instant pulse instead of a beam with duration. That would also make them different from both regular lasers and PPCs. Point at target, click, instant hit for 6-10 damage. Obviously the range is very short and give them about a 5 second cooldown between shots and maybe even tweak the heat up or the damage down a bit to balance them.

[SerEdvard]

Pulse lasers should NOT fire single burst pulses as long as the current convergence system is in place. The current high alpha meta of 35 pts of pinpoint damage concentrated on a single location from 2 ppc + gauss would just be extended into the world of laser weapons as well.

As long as we have perfect convergence, I'm pushing for pulse lasers becoming continuous fire, extreme DPS weapons (roughly 2x dps of standard lasers), balanced by their extra tonnage and reduced range.