54 replies to this topic

[Hillslam]

Because it does. Also because this forum is way too full of whiners.
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Not going to address folks' performance issues, just game and map design and the emergent behavior I'm seeing. No performance issues here, I consider myself lucky really.

Performance issues suck. I've had em. I hate em. The 50% bump in match sizes are probably hitting mid and low machines hard, and nobody likes getting hit. Me either, but all I can say is "hey, we're playing PC gaming after all. This isn't consoles, we all know how the upgrade game goes. (Well if you're really young maybe you don't). This isn't anything compared to the old days of Flight Sim mandated upgrading." I feel your pain. Been there. Luckily my rusting old Q6600 processor bought the farm a couple weeks ago and forced me to upgrade. (wanted a 3570 but ended up with a 4770). This game is REALLY cpu dependent. Unlike simple shooters like COD. There's ALOT more ballistics calcs going on in here. Something the vid card can't help us with. But... I'm still seeing 60-70 fps on a GTX580, to put numbers to what I'm seeing.
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On to the gameplay:

Even just watching the day one matches evolve, I can say something from the start: MWO matches now are forcing something more akin to tried and true real world battlefield tactics, as opposed to Quake deathmatch circus that it has been. Skirmish lines. Protecting your flanks. Cover cover and more cover.

TO be snarky, here's my thoughts Cut-n-Pasted from my 12v12 sucks post:

Quote

12 v 12 is great.

Oh no movement by blob doesn't work? Circle-strafing around each other gets you ripped apart by supporting mechs? Oh no are maps too small, there's a battle going on everywhere?



Maybe everyone not playing like a 2yr old's soccer game where all the kids run at hte same ball would help. Maybe deciding to do donuts with opponents in the middle of a battlefield was stupid to begin with. Maybe having to actually defend your battlepositions and battle line, and guard your flank instead of letting your gaggle of mechs get folded and surrounded would help.

You know. New tactics.

Already seen alot of this evolving on day one. Battle lines. Skirmishes. Areas of responsibility. Oh my.

None of the maps are too small. Some are still too big....

People will eventually figure it out. Some will figure it out faster and wait for the rest of them.

Maybe a little harsh, but the points are valid. One can only listen to so much whining.......

Anyhoo - I love 12v12. MOAR. Thx PGI

Edited by Hillslam, 07 August 2013 - 09:06 AM.

[IronChance]

I played a number of matches last night and would agree that this is definitely a big step forward. I sympathize with people who have taken big performance hits, though. I hope more optimization can address at least some of that.

[Ph30nix]

is it sad i joined this thread expecting to find a sarcastic post?

haven't tried 12v12 yet i hope my fears are unfounded.

[Braggart]

I played many hours last night, and loved it.

It didnt seem like steam rolls were any more common than before, and for S&G i was rolling in my mediums and did fine suprisingly.

Things will only get better. A good patch overall, we just gotta get the balance and tonnage matching in game.

[Laser Sheep]

I enjoyed it as well -- more "action packed." From what I experienced, there's a lot more going on in general. The game keeps getting better as I see it.

Haven't had any performance issues that I didn't have before, which are a result of my ****** internet connection more than anything else.

[Khavi Vetali]

Played 9 matches in the 12 man queue with my unit last night. Absolutely incredible. It was exactly what we've been waiting for.

[Murzao]

Pug 12v12 is pure awesome....premade 12v12 is pure...awesome-er. Just played in a few pug matches with a 2AC2 Cent-D and was top 3 in damage overall every game (450+ every game and upwards of 600 and had some kills...had even more killstolen off me). Not seeing this AC2 heat bug. Now you actually need tactics and cover your flanks in 12v12 cuz the fight comes from everywhere.

[Hillslam]

yeah. running as a rugby style scrum downfield is a sure way to get killbox'd.

people will adjust.


what i'm finding funny is some people's perception that 12v12 is a faster style of play. imo its just the opposite. meh, perception. tomato, tomahto

Edited by Hillslam, 07 August 2013 - 09:49 AM.

[PropagandaWar]

Got on TS lastnight my buddy was qq'ing about sniping. You know all ppc's Guass crazieness and the 12v12 sucked. I said ok. Played first match fattys stayed back at least 6 to stupid to realize that we were being overan. No sniping though except for some guy in back. Fun brawl while it lasted. Then BAM game after game did my thing created a few more. Was rolled twice maybe three games last night but for the most part the games were a blast. Oh also got the but we were rolled complaint funny thing is the match before we were 12-1 our victory and that loss was 4-12 theirs so I laughed and said well what did we do the round before. Aside from HSR being full crap with all weapons in a lot of matches it was still a blast. When me and 3 people turned a corner and were blasted by 10 big fraggin mechs it was funny as hell. All and all i like 12 man. More on the bigger maps though.

[MeiSooHaityu]

I like it a lot. It does feel like pure chaos most of the time, but it is fun.

I have been getting FPS frame drop spikes though (here and there), so I think the net code needs a tiny bit of tweaking to smooth things out.

Overall, I approve.

Hillslam, on 07 August 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

what i'm finding funny is some people's perception that 12v12 is a faster style of play. imo its just the opposite. meh, perception. tomato, tomahto

I think the matches (at least right now) tend to be taking longer. One match on River City Night took almost the entire 15min last night.

[Hillslam]

I do like how with the sheer number of mechs firing, the old "dash thru their ranks" runners of spiders and jenners and so forth get literally cut to ribbons from the sheer volume of laser fire. Even HSR and buggy hitboxes can't shrug off THAT much fire.

Every match last night when a light opened up by dashing thru our lines they got chopped to pieces.

I've no doubt that's the source of some of the QQ.......

Again, something that never should have been going on in the first place.

[Ridersofdoom]

yeahh more fresh meat, we can kill more than eight now.

[Cpt Chattahah]

Certainly made Terra Therma a lot more fun!

It can get a bit chaotic in smaller maps and I had to take a few rounds to adjust to how easy it was for an enemy group to take me down, but, after adjusting, it is tons of fun.

Two thumbs up!

[Navy Sixes]

Hillslam, on 07 August 2013 - 08:57 AM, said:

MWO matches now are forcing something more akin to tried and true real world battlefield tactics, as opposed to Quake deathmatch circus that it has been. Skirmish lines. Protecting your flanks. Cover cover and more cover.

This

Over the past few weeks it's been a drag to see role warfare flushed and swirling. I'm a cat driver, and while I strive to get my own locks, I feel my abilities as a "force multiplier" are greatly diminished by players who fixate on their kill ratios and scoring crits and so refuse to lock onto targets.

12v12 seems to have changed that, for now. Players have caught on to the novel idea that it's better to kill the enemy as fast and efficiently as possible, and LRM strikes have the ability to sway a battle once more, at least in the matches I've seen.

At least for the past couple of days, MWO has been feeling more like warfare than a sport, which is as it should be and why I'm playing to begin with.

Edited by Tycho von Gagern, 07 August 2013 - 10:29 AM.

[Sable Dove]

There's less tactics or strategy in 12v12. Lights go cap in conquest, and otherwise you just form the biggest blob of mechs you can and hope the enemy has a smaller blob, or has more mediums.

Individual players matter less, and it is impossible for a couple of exceptional players to carry a bad team.

12v12 works out for Terra Therma, Alpine, and maybe Tourmaline. Every other map is just too small to support so many players. It gets congested, and either you can't move freely because someone is crammed in behind you, or you can't shoot because someone's in front of you.

The problem is that 12v12 doesn't require a different strategy, it requires the same strategy as before; just more so. In 8v8 the 8-mech blob was the most effective combat tactic. In 12v12, the 12-mech blob is the most effective combat tactic. In 8v8 flanking was sometimes an option. In 12v12 it's either ball up, or die. Or I guess you could send a bunch of lights to go cap their base while you're fighting.

[Volomon]

I don't know which matches you've been playing but all I've seen after 10 matches is the same blob toward the enemy and the ones who attempt to attack the other blob first usually get opened up on and destroyed.

That's all I've seen. 12v12 shouldn't have been implemented without many other features. Testing of the maps to see if they adequately can contain 12v12. Is the current spawn placements of the lances ok? Is there enough communication in play to allow for teamwork in a 12v12 game? Is there enough FF warning in place for when everyone eventually everyone shoots each other?

12v12 should have been held off until a decent communications was in place preferably voice chat, divided into lances. Each with a captain, who can then talk to the leader of the whole group and each lance captain can talk to other lance captains.

Without these measures I have to disagree that 12v12 was a good idea. No ones thinking about saving that catapult that can only shoot LRMs and can barely defend itself. No light cares that other lights need their help in order to be effective against that lone assault. No Atlas cares that together they make formidable force if they crest that ridge at the same time.



The only thing everyone cares about is how much C-Bills they are earning and they will proceed to hit each target they see not being effect in battle but being effective in the score. This issue prompts dumb behavior all around. The lack of FF warning prompts people to be careless. The lack of lance comm prevents in depth tactics, or acknowledgement of needs and direction. How many times in 8v8 have you sat there and lost to one light in a 1v5 situation because your three lights are not attempting to cap or stop this light.

The public test was to determined if it worked, well it works. They failed to test to see if it was properly implemented.

Additionally the longer cap times have made it so that heavies and assaults can now respond to caps, and removes the light equation out a bit, they can no longer just go for points and heavies/assaults can effectively hold the map and the points especially on the smaller maps that should remain 8v8.

Due to this everyone will start moving up in tonnage I'm already saving for an Atlas, when I was previously working to go light or medium.

Edited by Volomon, 07 August 2013 - 10:46 AM.

[IC Rafe]

Hillslam, on 07 August 2013 - 09:56 AM, said:

I do like how with the sheer number of mechs firing, the old "dash thru their ranks" runners of spiders and jenners and so forth get literally cut to ribbons from the sheer volume of laser fire. Even HSR and buggy hitboxes can't shrug off THAT much fire.

Every match last night when a light opened up by dashing thru our lines they got chopped to pieces.

I've no doubt that's the source of some of the QQ.......

Again, something that never should have been going on in the first place.

So, what would you say is the use now for medium/light mechs? Capping takes over 2 minutes and is not rewarded except if you win through capping, fighting is suicide, scouting is usefull for the team but not rewarded and most likely gets you killed due to the sheer amount of fire too.

If i drop in a heavy/assault trialmech, i have fun in 12v12, but if i try to use my own raven or blackjack, i just cant do anything that either gets me somewhat close to the reward of heavy/assault or which feels like contributing to the match (did a capping conquest win earlier in alpine, spent litterally 7 minutes running around and looking at the back of whatever it is that we need to cap, not really fun. Incomewise i still was tons behind because i didn't get kills or anything. This just means that the role of any light/medium is now pretty much useless :/)

[Livebait]

I would not say it rocks but its okay. The maps are still too small IMO and when spawning in game all lances should be grouped and spread the f**k out. There needs to be objective points placed on the map for teams to rally at. The objective points will reduce the 12 man blobs that spread for many grids.

Weight limits need to be factored in for a lance. I see major amounts of Stalkers, Highlanders, Atlases etc. almost every game the only mechs left at the end are assaults.

[ztac]

First off :- 12 vs 12 is fun.

Now for the gritty stuff :- lower earnings of C-Bills (encourage MC buying and prem accounts no doubt).

Still got the matchmaker doing some pretty weird stuff (but then they never said it was fixed) ,

Seem to be rolling larger maps more (keeps you in the game longer , less C-Bills per hour).

Small maps are super fun, and remember that once you have killed 4 of the enemy you are facing 8 players , so any 'overcrowding' won't last too long. But putting larger forces on smaller maps certainly sorts the men out from the boys! Or the Ladies from the girls! (political correctness). But the C-bills thing is nasty!

Edited by ztac, 07 August 2013 - 11:20 AM.

[BigMekkUrDakka]

12v12 boring as hell for me now, more and more capwarriors emerge to ruin my fun
and herding pugs so annoying (
but i think sooner or later new new meta will be established so we will get snipefest back