91 replies to this topic

[AntiSqueaker]

Wolfways, on 08 August 2013 - 05:14 PM, said:

Why is a weight limit needed?

I can't speak for everyone, but I personally am kind of tired of being one of about 3-4 mechs in the Light/Medium category in an average match. The number of Heavies and Assaults is vastly outnumbering the number of Lights and Mediums most of the time, and I think that I am far from the only person wanting to see a battle without at least 7 Atlas's/Stalkers/Highlanders on the opposing team.

[Joseph Mallan]

We had a first run of that a while ago. Weight classes were matched as close as possible. Our group would have conversations like well if we already have 2 assaults and 3 heavies I'll bring my Jenner so we don't have all monsters on the other team.

[Dimento Graven]

AntiSqueaker, on 08 August 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

I can't speak for everyone, but I personally am kind of tired of being one of about 3-4 mechs in the Light/Medium category in an average match. The number of Heavies and Assaults is vastly outnumbering the number of Lights and Mediums most of the time, and I think that I am far from the only person wanting to see a battle without at least 7 Atlas's/Stalkers/Highlanders on the opposing team.

I refer back to this post, with slight modifications, because what you're talking about could be handled with an additional game mode:

Dimento Graven, on 07 August 2013 - 10:25 PM, said:

After thinking about it for a while, here's my pipe dream I wish I could see put into the match making system:

Following user configurable options:

SOLO MODE (ie: you're not part of any sort of pre-made):
- 4v4 solo, all 8 'mechs will be solo pugs.
- 8v8 solo, all 16 'mechs will be solo pugs.
- 12v12 solo, all 24 'mechs will be solo pugs.
- 4v4 team space filler, put in a slot in any compatible group trying to drop in pre-made 4v4.
- 8v8 team space filler, put in a slot in any compatible group trying to drop in pre-made 8v8.
- 12v12 team space filler, put in a slot in ay compatible group trying to drop in pre-made 12v12.

PRE-MADE MODE:
- 4v4 premade, weight limit, up to XXX weight: any size group 2 to 4 people, empty slots filled from above solo players, ELO adjusted matches
- 4v4 premade, weight balanced within X% range: any size group, 2 to 4 people, empty slots filled from above solo players, ELO adjusted matches
- 4v4 premade, unlimited class (no balance or limits or ELO), 2 to 4 people, empty slots filled.

- 8v8 premade, weight limit, up to XXX weight: any size group 2 to 8 people, empty slots filled from above solo players, ELO adjusted matches
- 8v8 premade, weight balanced within X% range: any size group, 2 to 8 people, empty slots filled from above solo players, ELO adjusted matches
- 8v8 premade, unlimited class (no balance or limits or ELO), 2 to 8 people, empty slots filled.

- 12v12 premade, weight limit, up to XXX weight: any size group 2 to 12 people, empty slots filled from above solo players, ELO adjusted matches
- 12v12 premade, weight balanced within X% range: any size group, 2 to 12 people, empty slots filled from above solo players, ELO adjusted matches
- 12v12 premade, unlimited class (no balance or limits OR ELO), 2 to 12 people, empty slots filled

Another option to allow solo players and team to select battle mode:
- Any
- Assault
- Conquest
- Tower Defense
- Tower Attack
- Run the gauntlet
- BE the gauntlet
- Hide and seek, be the hider
- Hide and seek, YOU'RE IT
- New mode X
- Now mode Y

'Mech Mode Option
- Unlimited, any mix of any 'mech class
- Lights Only
- Mediums Only
- Heavies Only
- Assaults Only
(added per AntiSqueaker's comments...

And also an option for teams and solo players to select map preferences:
- Preference #1
- Preference #2
- Preference #3
- Preference #4
- Any maps EXCEPT #1
- Any maps EXCEPT #2
- Any maps EXCEPT #3
- Any maps EXCEPT #4
- No preference, whatever's available.

And the final option to add to tie it all together would be a player/team leader configurable match making timer:

- Default mode sets match maker to select off of chose SOLO/PRE-MADE mode.
- After X seconds, try [user selected] primary alternate mode.
- After X more seconds, try [user selected] secondary alternate modes.
- After X more seconds, abort match maker, giving the team to change mechs, battlemode, add/remove people, maps

For organized competition, each pre-made team could assign them selves a name when the group is created, allowing a VERSES mode (I know in my unit, we like practicing against each other, had 24 players on tonight for several hours, and early on had issues dropping against each other), so that you can select !!!CHALLENGE!!!, type in the name of the other team (or browse a pop-up, though that might be resource prohibitive), and BLAMMO, you're battling your friends or some other unit that you've having friendly smack talk with.

Once the challenge team has selected the team they want to fight total number of 'mechs and total weight of the team show up, and map preference, and for craps and giggles, you could put the combined ELO score for the team as well.

No need for the match making system to do weight balancing or limitations, or keep the number of 'mechs equal, or any ELO calculations with this option, it's completely player controlled if 5 mechs want to fight 12, let 'em. At most you could put in a warning stating, "Your team of 5 'mechs at 320 tons is challenging a team of 12 'mechs of 1200 tons, are you SURE?"

Something like this would be the MOST player friendly setup possible, allowing each solo player and team to setup their preferences and tune their experience to be as enjoyable as possible.

AND THAT is how you could implement weight balance, ELO balance, competitive balance, PUG balance, no more expletive pre-made pug stomping and all that rot, in one very large FELL SWOOP.

If I'm going to dream, THAT would be my IMPOSSIBLE DREAM...

[Hellcat420]

AntiSqueaker, on 08 August 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

I can't speak for everyone, but I personally am kind of tired of being one of about 3-4 mechs in the Light/Medium category in an average match. The number of Heavies and Assaults is vastly outnumbering the number of Lights and Mediums most of the time, and I think that I am far from the only person wanting to see a battle without at least 7 Atlas's/Stalkers/Highlanders on the opposing team.

so go set up some 12v12 matches and quit trying to dictate what mechs people can bring in pug matches. the whole point of pug matches is to use the mech you want to pilot, not the mech some random ********* tells you to bring.

[Wolfways]

AntiSqueaker, on 08 August 2013 - 06:02 PM, said:

I can't speak for everyone, but I personally am kind of tired of being one of about 3-4 mechs in the Light/Medium category in an average match. The number of Heavies and Assaults is vastly outnumbering the number of Lights and Mediums most of the time, and I think that I am far from the only person wanting to see a battle without at least 7 Atlas's/Stalkers/Highlanders on the opposing team.

Wish i could trade places with you then as there's always lots of lights in my matches.
Mediums seem to be getting more popular too. I see more than i used to anyway.

[Belorion]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 07 August 2013 - 06:10 PM, said:

If you're going to do drop limits, then it should be 4 of each weight class -or- 900 tons.

900 tons would be 8 altases, and 4 commandos. That is hardly a reduction over what we have now.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

Belorion, on 08 August 2013 - 06:34 PM, said:

900 tons would be 8 altases, and 4 commandos. That is hardly a reduction over what we have now.

I don't see the problem with that team comp.

[Joseph Mallan]

Got some Steiner blood in ya Levi?

[Huntsman]

2 lights (average tonnage 20+35/2=27.5*2=55)
5 mediums (average tonnage 40+55/2=47.5*5=237.5)
3 heavy (average tonnage 60+75/2=67.5*3=202.5)
2 assault (average tonnage 80+100/2=90*2=180)

total tonnage = 675

Wow, while my weight class breakdown was a bit different I came up with the same tonnage limit. That does seem perfect.

[Belorion]

Levi Porphyrogenitus, on 08 August 2013 - 08:24 PM, said:

I don't see the problem with that team comp.

It would make implementing the cap silly. No use making a cap if anyone can bring whatever they want anyway.

Edited by Belorion, 08 August 2013 - 10:14 PM.

[Huntsman]

A thread referencing canon on my own company's forums got me thinking about this again and...

Command Lance = 320 tons (average tonnage of two assault mechs plus the average tonnage of two 65 ton and two 75 ton heavies)

2 assaults
2 heavies

Fire Lance = 210 tons(one 60 heavy mech plus the average of 3 medium mechs between 45 and 55 tons)

1 heavy
3 mediums

Scout Lance = 120 tons (average tonnage between a 20 ton mech and a 40 ton mech)

1 medium
3 lights

Obviously these averages are based on some mechs of tonnages that haven't been released yet but this works out to be a total team tonnage of 650.

Team composition breakdown based on weight class:

2 assault
3 heavy
4 medium
3 light

Edited by Huntsman, 09 August 2013 - 07:29 AM.

[Ngamok]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 August 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

And what about those of us who want to be an Assault Company???
<-------- Notice the Mailed Fist.

Scout Lance.

[Ngamok]

Dimento Graven, on 07 August 2013 - 01:31 PM, said:

Not interested in weight limitations. Only interested in weight balance when setting up drops.

Two totally completely different things, only slightly related though:

A weight limitation, puts limits on what types of 'mechs you can drop with.

Weight balance makes sure that no one side has an extreme advantage by bringing 12 assaults when the other team only brought 4...

Playing Mech Commander with weight restrictions on the drops was pretty fun IMO. You had to think on which mechs and pilots you had to take on a drop depending on the mission type.

[Ngamok]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 August 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Well that's just Assaulting Col.

Like filing Assault Charges?

[NinetyProof]

No ... an "even" match up is 4x3 ... 3 of each weight class .. averaged.

3 * 30 = 90 +
3 * 47.5 = 142.5 +
3 * 65 = 195 +
3 * 88.75 = 266
695ish ...

So you were only 20 or so lbs off. But in reality, should be a bit higher ... like 695-725 cause frankly people love big stompy mechs :-)

[Squid von Torgar]

Quote

Limiting weight won't do anything.

Just like the lava on Mordor.

Nope, tonnage limits will help mediums. Half the trouble with meds is that there are too many assaults and heavies on the field. Hopefully tonnage limits will put meds in the majority and H/A into the minority. Then you will see meds have an easier time (note there are plenty of med builds atm that are excellent, they just suffer from having to face off against mechs way above their weight)

Edited by Squid von Torgar, 09 August 2013 - 12:00 PM.

[Tibs]

Someone needs make a poll on it best weight limit should be at 450 to 1000 and.let people. Vote for it,

[Dimento Graven]

Tibs, on 09 August 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

Someone needs make a poll on it best weight limit should be at 450 to 1000 and.let people. Vote for it,

Make sure and put in the following options:

Unlimited, no limit.
Weight Balanced (both sides must be within a few percent of the same weight)

[KuruptU4Fun]

As a point of contention, how long do you think would it take for the matchmaking system to assign pugs and premades with their selected mechs to create a game? I'd venture to say several minutes, and in truth that would be a good reason to stop playing this game.

Weight limits per match aren't going to solve the problem and personally I think an option that we are required to face should be added as well. As you know you have the choice to preselect 4 mechs in a que that are visible in the home screen.

My idea would be to have player have at least 2 mechs of different weight classes available and let the MM system choose which one you have to pilot, if you have 4 then things would obviously go faster. As a tradeoff to us players all XP becomes general XP that we can apply to the mech tree of 4 selected choices that were ready to drop.

[Dan Nashe]

I do agree that this doesn't necessarily address the problem of mediums.
When are two mediums better than a jenner (or ecm raven) and a jaegermech? Ever?

At the same time, most players seem to enjoy heavy or assault. So lets be realistic, if 70 of players wnt to play heavy or assaults at any given moment, only allowing 2 assaults and two heavies per 12 man is bad for the game.

Personally I love meds, but not all do. So If you hardcapped assaults, it could cause issues.
Personally, hunchies need a higher engine cap, as do bjacks, and the agility tweaks will help with popularity.

Also also there are several issues at stake that all have different solutions and problems.

1. I queue for a pug, how heavyor light can I be? 4 assault lances or 4 light mech lances really mess with the matchmaker and produce weird battles. Now imagine 8 atlai queuing together if they raise the limit?

2. PuG matchmaker. Weight class or tonnage matching? Weight class is cool because if I bring a fast medium, I have to be compared to slow mediums, I don't have to compare myself to jenners. Tonnage is cool because if I bring a dragon, we might get to upgrade a cataphract to a stalker.

3. 12 man. Tonnage and weight class MATCHING are not practical. The queu is way too small. But! Because it's a full premade, it can be made to conform to limits.
Problem: 2 mediums worse than light plus heavy.
Problem: straightjacketing classes "no more than x assaults" will really kill it for players if 1/3 of your team only likes assaults.

Now in a perfect game 1 light = 1 med = 1 hvy = 1 assault, bit that's easier said than done and not always a reality. It certainly wasn't in batttletech.