36 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Khobai, on 07 August 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

I mostly agree with your scaling but your Jenner is way too small. Jenners need to be bigger.

Wrong. Jenners are very short mechs due to the fact they are built long and squat. Also stand Jenner next to a commando and look at it from all angles. You will see that the Jenner is about the same height but also twice as thick, just what you would except from 35 ton mech.

[Bishop Steiner]

looks to me like the Jenner is actually one of the few that is spot on and make sense. That Catapult of the other hand, looks like it has guest rooms and a jacuzzi in it's cockpit.

[Utilyan]

Tennex, on 07 August 2013 - 04:15 PM, said:

If i had my way

That looks good.

You know what it is.........Has to be someone with like OCD.....who looked at sizes of the ladders or something on the mechs.......and was like...........they have to match.......

Not a video gamer.

[FearTheAmish]

Very few mech groups scare me...

1.) Stiener scout lances (4 atlas): they are big and intimidating but you just rolling reatreat and can usually handle them

2.) Centurion Hunter killer groups: you cant escape them with multiples swarming around you they are hard to kill and they can be ultra damaging

3.) Spider Lance: 4 spiders... thats all i can say....

As you can see out of 3 things that scare me one of them is a Medium.

[Stardancer01]

House faction efficiencies should be coming soon
All inner sphere factions heavy lean on medium mechs, so they should get a large boost, no matter what faction you chose.

I had hoped that specific mech class, type, variant efficiencies should come in first
For example
Small mechs should get +25% range on all small weapons.
Medium mechs should get a 0.5 heat reduction on medium lasers/pulse lasers.
Heavy mechs… Assault mechs…

[Duck Hunt]

Vouch this..
I see mediums as a heavy with no armor they are HUGE

[Khobai]

Quote

Wrong. Jenners are very short mechs due to the fact they are built long and squat. Also stand Jenner next to a commando and look at it from all angles. You will see that the Jenner is about the same height but also twice as thick, just what you would except from 35 ton mech.

Not wrong. Jenners are too short.

Height = easier to hit from front AND side
Width = easier to hit from the front
Depth = easier to hit from side

See? Depth matters less than half as much as height. That is why the Raven is so much easier to hit than the Jenner because the Raven's height makes it easier to hit from all angles while the Jenner's depth only makes it harder to hit from the side.

PGI obviously did not put very much thought into mech dimensions. Height is the most important factor in determining how easy a mech is to hit, followed by width, and lastly depth.

Mechs like the Jenner and Stalker that have most of their volume consumed by depth end up having a huge advantage over mechs that are tall or wide instead. And since most of our mediums are either tall or wide its very obvious why scaling is a problem for them.

Edited by Khobai, 11 August 2013 - 06:27 PM.

[Anjian]

Shadey99, on 11 August 2013 - 11:04 AM, said:

Stock QDs yes. But I have QDs/Dragons with 360 engines hitting 110 kph that hunt down my Cicadas on a fairly regular basis. Roughly 20 kph won't have you gain distance between 2 mechs very quickly. It's very hard to pull ahead and away with only a 20 odd kph difference in speeds. Even less so without JJs.

I even find 90 kph Victors every dozen games or so being used on the enemy team. Which means a Victor can equal a stock Shadowhawk, but have way more armor and at least equal firepower. Unless something changes that battlemaster will be another candidate for 'fast assault' as well.

While in TT 90 odd kph (roughly 60 mph for those like me that don't think in metric) is a solid speed. In MWO with only max engine ratings to keep heavier mechs from competing in that same speed range we run into a problem. While speed is a trade off for a larger mech, it isn't as bad as it is for a medium. Heavies and assaults have tonnage, it's what makes them heavies and assaults. So it should be no surprise they have issues making mediums competitive.

But you are talking modified mechs vs. stock mechs. How fast a modified Shadowhawk can become? Do note that modified mechs do sacrifice durability and firepower for that mobility. A Victor on 90kph isn't the same as a Treb on 90kph. While they may achieve the same top speed, the smaller mechs still have smaller turning radiuses, faster torso twists and arms movement, faster breaking and acceleration.

But of course, PGI can still mess up future medium mechs with oversized models and large center torsos, and faster heavies and assaults (Quickdraws and Victors especially) are already replacing mediums in the jobs mediums do, such as skirmishing, flanking and capping.

Edited by Anjian, 11 August 2013 - 06:38 PM.

[Shadey99]

Anjian, on 11 August 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

But you are talking modified mechs vs. stock mechs. How fast a modified Shadowhawk can become? Do note that modified mechs do sacrifice durability and firepower for that mobility. A Victor on 90kph isn't the same as a Treb on 90kph. While they may achieve the same top speed, the smaller mechs still have smaller turning radiuses, faster torso twists and arms movement, faster breaking and acceleration.

A maxed Shadowhawk can hit 106/116 kph, so slightly faster than a maxed Victor and the Dragon/QD can reach 97/106 kph. If my 133 kph Cicada has trouble pulling away from a 106 kph QD it's not really looking so great for the Shadowhawk and such a shadowhawk looks more like this SHD-2H. A similar QD could look like this QKD-4G.

JJs boost turning radius, look at good Victor pilots. They don't turn using the mech turning, but do a quick JJ flip. Since SH, QD, and Victors share this ability it's likely all will be similar in maneuvering. The Shadowhawk, Dragon, and Quickdraw all max at a 360 rated engine so turning/torso twist/arm movement/etc are only going to differ by class features or chasis features. This is why we see Dragons, QDs, and Victors doing flanking and skirmishing. Of course since they have to commonly match up against other heavies and assaults they have a someone better time since they have the armor for it.

[HammerSwarm]

So I think we've worked together to identify the problems

Size: too big
Speed: too slow
Tonnage: unbalances everything.

What can my centurion do that isn't better done by a heavier mech with more tons?
Ditto this for hunchback, trebuchet, kintaro, and blackjack.

Without a tonnage limit every mech of a smaller size hurts your team.

[Viscount Hood]

The only medium I use is a HBK (4H, 4J, 4P, 4SP and latest 4G) so I can only comment on this mech.
IMO A fully skilled up (to Elite) HBK is very agile, great twist X and twist speed. I have no complaints on armour amount and I think it's very good for its class as is the number of weapons and cooling ablility. It lacks speed in comparison between lights and heavy class.
You have to change the way you 'fight' as you cannot successfully brawl like all other classes which I think is where a speed boost would help.

[HammerSwarm]

Size is a problem, but it's not what is holding mediums back.
Speed is a problem, but again it's not holding mediums back.

The problem is one of tonnage. In an arena where the weight classes don't matter there is no reason not to take a larger mech of the same speed which has more armor and more weaponry. If your choices are a Centurion or an Orion, and weight does not matter, why would you ever take the centurion?

Until and Unless they implement weight restrictions on drops, at a minimum weight matching, everything else will just be window dressing.

They could/should increase maneuverability of medium mechs. They could/should re-size medium mechs.

Lets face it, Mediums are a nominal downgrade.

Lights will be reigned in once the wonky hit boxes are fixed, if they are fixed, and damage is properly taken by lights. (Hitting a spider with a full blast from my hunchback 4p and watching it run away laughing at me is frustraiting).

Heavies and Assaults will be curtailed only by weight restrictions, because that is the system designed to curtail these mechs.

Think a 12 mech 740 ton drop, and then put 3 atlai in and work out the rest...440 tons for 9 mechs ain't much. 8x50 ton mediums, and a cicada. That sounds like balance to me. and it sounds like mediums are favored. Sure in this scenario you could drop with 5 atli and bunch of lights, but again once hit boxes are fixed, if you can hit them they should die.

Push for tonnage limits now.

[Foxfire]

I disagree. Most mediums will still be joke even with weight restrictions. It will make Mediums a bit more prevalent, of course, but not that much more useful.

I can still pick most mediums apart in even non-bugged lights. high alpha heavies and assaults will still hit them like the broadside of a barn.

Size might be a minor issue in of itself.. speed might be an issue in of itself.. but mediums have a problem with both.

The only way to keep mediums balanced as is.. is to introduce punishing R&R to encourage people to fiend mediums and lights over more expensive mechs.

[Fishbrane]

There are two things holding back Medium mechs.

• The pilot
  
• The pilot

Yep, that's about it.

[von Pilsner]

Atomicoxen, on 19 August 2013 - 09:19 PM, said:

There are two things holding back Medium mechs.

• The pilot
  
• The pilot

Yep, that's about it.

Yes, all the medium mechs are perfect and do not need any quirks, balancing, or size adjustment.

[Fishbrane]

von Pilsner, on 19 August 2013 - 09:28 PM, said:

Yes, all the medium mechs are perfect and do not need any quirks, balancing, or size adjustment.

I was going to waste time writing up a detailed explanation of why medium mechs are okay, but I've just had an epiphany.

On second thought, you know what? I was wrong! Yes, medium mechs are TERRIBLE and need massive buffs, balancing, quirks, ponies, and lighting bolts that fly from their tail pipes!

Sure, I spend 90% of my MWO time in Mediums, but who am I to dissuade making them stronger?

Please, by all means fix these broken, useless machines!

[Bishop Steiner]

Atomicoxen, on 19 August 2013 - 09:47 PM, said:

I was going to waste time writing up a detailed explanation of why medium mechs are okay, but I've just had an epiphany.

On second thought, you know what? I was wrong! Yes, medium mechs are TERRIBLE and need massive buffs, balancing, quirks, ponies, and lighting bolts that fly from their tail pipes!

Sure, I spend 90% of my MWO time in Mediums, but who am I to dissuade making them stronger?

Please, by all means fix these broken, useless machines!

and so begins the start of wisdom, grasshopper.