14 replies to this topic

[VxSaAgE]

Hey guys,

I was just wondering what the status of joystick support is, as well as other peripherals that users might be curious about.

Joysticks - Are they still ultimately inferior to M+KB? I honestly hate playing a mech/flying game where I'm forced to use M+KB in order to be competitive.

Others - Honestly I know the answer to TrackIR, but I feel like, if this thread became a sticky or something, others might want to know exactly what the status is.



Thanks MWO community!

PS. Yes, I HAVE searched for the status and it's very much a lack of information situation.

[CyBerkut]

There's little information to see, because things haven't really changed much.

A mouse remains superior to commercial-off-the-shelf (COTS) joysticks in MWO. Look for Loc Nar's treatise on zero order vs first order controllers to get a thorough understanding as to why. There are some who manage to be functional with their joysticks, but many of them place a premium upon immersion over combat effectiveness. Alternatively, you can make a custom zero order controller, as Loc Nar did... but you better have your hacker/geek hat on... it's not trivial.

Going beyond that, for a complete control scheme it comes down to taste. I prefer a HOTAM (Hands On Throttle And Mouse) combined with Rudder Pedals. I use the throttle from my Saitek X52Pro HOTAS and Saitek Combat Pro Rudder pedals.

Others like using a gaming oriented mini-keyboard such as a Nostromo N-52, or a Logitech G-13.

[Loc Nar]

Uhhhg... I had a reply that covered many bases (including recommendations...) in what for me is few words. However, I somehow clumsily hit some f*cking shortcut button with my pinky and lost the whole. post.... and I can't bring myself to rewrite it.

At least here is a link to my Controls Demystified(?) post... :/

...and the zero-order joystick I built for mech piloting, which is installed in my mechpit.

TrackIR... oh god PGI... please hurry up with it already... (not in game and probably not anytime soon, but please ask on the new ask the devs since only squeaky wheels get greased and they need to see new people showing interest in this...)

[Gremlich Johns]

Meh, I was running an HBK-4G(F) one match and although I only got 1 kill and 2 assists, I managed to garner 800 pts of damage - while using a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and a nostromo n52. Other matches I have gotten well over 550 with the same setup. I've spectated in cockpits where I can tell the player really sux using the KB+M.

[Madara Uchiha]

Gremlich Johns, on 05 July 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Meh, I was running an HBK-4G(F) one match and although I only got 1 kill and 2 assists, I managed to garner 800 pts of damage - while using a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and a nostromo n52. Other matches I have gotten well over 550 with the same setup. I've spectated in cockpits where I can tell the player really sux using the KB+M.

That's actually my setup..is it me or does the stick seem a little slow on turns? I stopped using it because of that reason.

[shotokan5]

No at this point they have not worked on the joystick problems. Now for the good news. Soon they will do the coding which will make most major control sticks extremely useable . My new X52 pro will have to stay in the box a little longer, because targeting is a nightmare . It does have dead zones but do not overcome the problem. Yes, many who wish for a stick will have to wait a little longer before it will match the keyboard and mouse. Sorry, but they have other things they have to do first, which will make the coding work.

[Loc Nar]

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Meh, I was running an HBK-4G(F) one match and although I only got 1 kill and 2 assists, I managed to garner 800 pts of damage - while using a Logitech Extreme 3D Pro and a nostromo n52. Other matches I have gotten well over 550 with the same setup. I've spectated in cockpits where I can tell the player really sux using the KB+M

This does not change the underlying mechanicis of the control orders and device limitions. I'm not saying the game can't be played with a normal joystick, I'm just trying to detangle the myths surrounding controls that all too many gaming forums are full of. I routinely do over 500dmg/1-5 kills and crack 800 often enough in my Cicadas, but this too is irellevant to the underlying mechanics being what they are. This isn't me making stuff up, this is an established field of engineering. Also, driving slow mechs is how most people adapt to the limitations of first-order controllers. Do this in a Commando (<3 my Deathsnail!) or other fast mover and it's a little more impressive, but still changes nothing about the underlying mechanics, that a normal joystick which manipulates velocity is objectively less controllable than a zero-order controller (mouse typically) in MWO or any other zero-order application since they're built around direct positional maniuplation.

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at this point they have not worked on the joystick problems. Now for the good news. Soon they will do the coding which will make most major control sticks extremely useable

Optimism is always appreciated, but this unfortunately has nothing to do with PGI not getting around to coding something or not knowing what a joystick is. For one there are already joysticks (any TARGET capable stick...) that sail right past the little technical limitations that keep most joystick users from figuring out that it's less than stellar, and there are already purpose built joysticks that work quite well within the constraints and limitations of the game. The key is identifying the actual mechanics and working with what is there. MWO is already coded in zero-order. There is no going back from here, unless you think PGI is going to uproot the entire conrols of the game and kill it for all the mousers just to appease the tiny fraction of stick users by rewriting it for first-order mechanics (like previous mech titles and flight sims are coded). I recommend reading my controls post linked above...

[shotokan5]

Over the last year their has been much progress in getting the joysticks to work much better on MWO. The main problem is that it is not considered very important to them to write the target radical code which will make targeting equal to a mouse. I have many friends from times past that will not play the game till they fix it. To bad for them. The company could care less about us who are from the times when joysticks were king's in the mech world. Look at the mech cockpit I don't see a keyboard their. Very sad.

[Loc Nar]

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Over the last year their has been much progress in getting the joysticks to work much better on MWO.

o_O It stands today nearly exactly where is stood one year ago. Joysticks are slightly easier to get to technically work with MWO, but that was never the real problem, and there have always been ways to get past the silly technical hurdles that keep anything beyond that a secret. The problem is MWO is based around zero-order control, but a joystick is a first-order controller. Game over, man, game over. Controls Demystified(?)

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The main problem is that it is not considered very important to them to write the target radical code which will make targeting equal to a mouse.

It is not even possible. Since MWO is already coded for zero-order control, the concession to the mouse was made before closed beta even started. There is no way to go back now and change this without shedding >90% of the current playerbase, because at this point it involved what would be perceived as 'nerfing mice'.

It's true there could have been parity between the controllers, but that would have had to been done before letting players get used to their mouses being perfect zero-order control pointing devices that operate identically to cursor pointing tasks in a browser.

It's not that they 'don't care' about joystick users, but rather a conciseness decision was made to make this game accessible to the masses, who sadly are predominately kbm players. The controls are juuust different enough from other shooters that they likely wanted the shooter crowd not to feel too out of their element since that's their target audience, so they coded reticule aim as unfettered zero-order control, just like any other shooter.

As a cockpit builder/joystick builder, I never have and never will accept kbm as in input device for anything but browsing, so I chose to build a stick for this game and I am very glad I went through the trouble (starting with identifying the root causes of the problems), cause MWO is really fun to play in an immersive environment.

If you want to use a joystick with MWO and be completely hobbled by your stubbornness, you either:

1. put it in your left hand and use it for throttle/turning -or-
2. be an exceptional player and accept the limitations of your setup (meaning driving slow mechs) -or-
3. make a zero-order control joystick

[Gremlich Johns]

Madara Uchiha, on 05 July 2013 - 04:03 PM, said:

That's actually my setup..is it me or does the stick seem a little slow on turns? I stopped using it because of that reason.

I turn just fine

[Hammerhai]

Actually, it seems the rudder axis is slower than the old digital turn. Having said that, most of the time I still get the aiming pipper on target. The advantage is that it is actually nice and progressive, letting you aim better.
As regards joystick play - PGI is so close mouthed that they let us figure out for ourselves what had been done. There has never been a direct comment other than this from CB> "Players will be able to use a joystick, but the mouse will be king for competitive play". Quoted from memory, sooo... However that is exactly what we got. We CAN use the Joystick. Nothing more.
btw what is Alzheimers first name? Don't know? So you got it too eh?

I will always remember getting the shaft as a JS Player, for I still believe the two controllers could have been put on an equal footing by PGI if they actually had wanted to. I am also sure the crowd that pays $30 for a Hero Mech is usually us old farts who believed in the franchise and wanted what we remember from 1995. But we are not their target demographic any more and probably have not been for a very long time.

Edited by Hammerhai, 27 September 2013 - 01:18 PM.

[shotokan5]

Hammerhai, on 27 September 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Actually, it seems the rudder axis is slower than the old digital turn. Having said that, most of the time I still get the aiming pipper on target. The advantage is that it is actually nice and progressive, letting you aim better.
As regards joystick play - PGI is so close mouthed that they let us figure out for ourselves what had been done. There has never been a direct comment other than this from CB> "Players will be able to use a joystick, but the mouse will be king for competitive play". Quoted from memory, sooo... However that is exactly what we got. We CAN use the Joystick. Nothing more.
btw what is Alzheimers first name? Don't know? So you got it too eh?

I will always remember getting the shaft as a JS Player, for I still believe the two controllers could have been put on an equal footing by PGI if they actually had wanted to. I am also sure the crowd that pays $30 for a Hero Mech is usually us old farts who believed in the franchise and wanted what we remember from 1995. But we are not their target demographic any more and probably have not been for a very long time.

Here, Here You are right on the button. This rubbish about joysticks don't muster up is just that. If they can't get the radical code get someone that can. Some sticks like the X52 Pro can out maneuver any keyboard and I can run circles around Mech's, but like us other old guys we are told that the mouse is better rubbish again. They just must think most of us are dead or to old to play. Give me one that has good code and us old timers will kick tail. That's a fact jack.

[southernob]

he he, I using a regular joystick on my left for the moving task and mouse on the right for aiming and shoting, my Choc Mini keyboard act as an assitant control board. Strangly enough, I found it much easier to use the Joystick for moving instead of Keyboard. Maybe mainly because I can both turning task and keep my speed in check at the same time. Plus, I always find pressing A and D for turning is morally wrong, Joystick feel much more natural.
In fact, I'm considering using my logitech M570 trackball for aiming and shooting on the right hand. It should feel even more "right" than my current Corsair M60.

Edited by southernob, 03 October 2013 - 01:16 AM.

[Loc Nar]

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Strangly enough, I found it much easier to use the Joystick for moving instead of Keyboard. Maybe mainly because I can both turning task and keep my speed in check at the same time. Plus, I always find pressing A and D for turning is morally wrong, Joystick feel much more natural.
In fact, I'm considering using my logitech M570 trackball for aiming and shooting on the right hand.

Not strange at all. When people say 'kbm' is best usually they are just parroting what they heard xXgamerjoeXx say but all they are doing is either oversimplifying the situation on purpose to make a point, or out of ignorance because they are actually misinformed themselves and truly believe what they are saying. There is nothing superior about using a keyboard instead of analog controls for both throttle and steering... and in fact is a liability by comparison. Keyboard is always riding the mouse's coattails in these conversations, but in reality deserves little to no respect as an input device for anything but typing...

Throttle and steering are first-order and second-order control functions respectively... and it's no mystery to anyone that studies controls that using the correct controller (or at least not using the wrong one) for a task ALWAYS yields superior results. Not only is a joystick 'useable' for throttle/steering, it provides measurable mechanical advantage over someone using on/off switches when what they really want are gradients. For throttle, using keyboard is laggy if using w/s, and using the numpad literally takes your hand off the steering wheel, and for steering the kb only provides full rates of turn. Both of those problems are mitigated by using a joystick or throttle/pedals without sacrificing performance, speed, or accessibility of full rate functions on/off switches provide. Practically any *first-order controller or combo of first-order controllers will win over kb...

A trackball to aim will be just fine too once you adjust to the difference in practice. Trackballs are zero-order control devices just like mice, and so is reticule aim so there is no conflict of control order between input device and application on this critical component. It's questionable whether a trackball can be ergonomically sustained at the same accuracy levels for extended periods due to physical fatigue and other ergonomic challenges, but there are no digital/electronic reasons not to pursue this control scheme and training grounds is a pretty forgiving environment to explore these permutations.

*first-order controllers also excel at second-order control, which is very similar to first-order... unlike zero-order which is its own beast altogether

[MnDragon]

I understand all of what is being said regarding zero order vs first order controlers, but I still do better with a full on HOTAS set up than with HOTAM or KBM. My mind just can't wrap around pointing at a screen to hit a target vs manevering my recticle to the target. I also have an X52 Pro that I adjusted sensitivity through several iterations in the training grounds and it works very well. Is it point and click like a mouse, no, but I find that I actually aim better and can track a target better with my joystick than with a mouse. Besides, I have lots of lights and buttons which keeps my hands on the controls at all times and I don't have to look down to find the correct key to push in the middle of a battle.