23 replies to this topic

[MisterFiveSeven]

I hate starting threads in the middle of a QQ hurricane, but here goes; please try to stay on topic and be intelligent (a long shot but I figured I'd try ).

1. AC40 nerf does not change the fact that AC20 and Gauss are the only ballistics worth taking (haha ninja ac2 nerf :/) on certain builds.

2. PPC nerf does not change the fact that PPC's are the most effective energy weapon in the game, at any range against almost any target (if the hitreg was better it'd be every target).

3. Ssrm2's have been worthless in every implementation of mechwarrior other than MWO.  They can now go back to hanging out with MG's and flamers.

4. Forcing people to chain fire high damage per shot weapons (PPC, gauss, ac20) exacerbates the problems that duration weapons had before, because you are getting encouraged to torso twist like a ninny.

Yes, the game seems slower (good), and yes, damage seems to spread out more (even better), but arbitrary band-**** don't fix the problem.  It's like saying you cured world hunger by killing all the hungry people; it does nothing to address the fact that there are balance issues that make certain weapons STILL no brainers.  There are fundamental weapon strength balancing issues that needs fix (and yeah convergence, blah blah).

I have seen no suggestion that this heat scale is temporary.  I have seen no ideas, plans, or even hints that, from a balance standpoint, THE FACT THAT BOATING WASN'T THE PROBLEM, JUST A SYMPTOM is understood at the developer level.  They've said they'll be balancing the heat scale and it is in no way final, but have they said anything about particular weapon balance?  They buffed SRM's to 2.0 (YAY), but how many programmer man hours does it take to change erppc heat to 13 and see what happens? But people seem happy with this fix, so maybe I should just line up with everyone else and pretend that I did have lots of trouble eating an ac40 jagers side torso...

Edited by MisterFiveSeven, 17 July 2013 - 03:50 AM.

[Lykaon]

As I see it the root cause is lifting the table top game's armor system of distinct values for each body location without having sufficent mechanics to adapt this to a real time shooter/Sim where players can aim.

The armor mechanic taken from the table top had several supporting mechanics to balance it's inherent flaws.Without these supporting mechanics the table top game would be very quick and very unfun.

Initiative die rolls, accumulating heat scale penalties,Turn based manuvering,Die rolls to determine hits and die rolls to determine where the hits landed all contributed to balancing out the table top game's armor mechanics.

The problem is pretty much all of the table top game mechanics used to support the game's damage dealing/absorption mechanics do not work for a sim style video game.

The closest thing we have is a heat system and that is lacking in my opinion and should not be the only mechanic relied upon to balance damage dealing potentials.

It's to late in the development of MWo to alter the armor mechanics much even though at it's core the current alpha strike madness is just a symptom of the armor mechanics taken from the table top game.

[Koniving]

I see a very different root cause than the guy above me. While there's a solution that can be done with that, it really wouldn't be necessary when you consider where the mistake really rests in.

Heat capacity (threshold, limit to shutdown.)
Tabletop, it's 30. Hit 30 and shutdown.

MW3, the supposedly most balanced MW to date, 30. Hit 30 and shutdown. Hit 45 and explode.
It still had sniper issues but the combo was 2 PPCs + 2 gauss, once per 10 seconds versus MWO's 2 ER PPCs + 1 Gauss once per 4 seconds. MW3 also had wide open areas with real no cover anywhere aside from hills. Lasers were instant damage. Autocannons did "burst fire" and so an AC/20 might fire 4 shots at 5 damage each.

In MW2 it was 40 and the weapons produced lower heat. Lasers were instant damage. Autocannons fired as many bullets as its number. An AC/20 therefore fired 20 bullets at 1 damage each.

In MW4, before MekTek, the capacity was 60. Hit 60 and shutdown. Hit 90 and die. This had been known for a long time as the most poorly balanced Mechwarrior in the entire franchise.
After MekTek, from what I read, it became "a varying capacity depending on the size of the mech." Don't know if that's true.

In none of them did the capacity ever rise based on your heatsinks.

In MWO?
Well let's look back...

• TT: 30 capacity. No explosion cap. SHS 1 cooling per 10 seconds (0.1 per second). DHS 2 cooling per 10 seconds (0.2 per second).
  
• MW2: 40 capacity. Don't remember the explosion cap. SHS 0.1 cooling per second DHS 0.2 cooling per second.
  
• MW3: 30 capacity. 45 self-destruct cap. SHS 0.1 cooling per second. DHS 0.2 cooling per second.
  
• MW4: 60 capacity. 90 self-destruct cap. SHS 0.1 cooling per second, DHS 0.2 cooling per second.
  
• MWO: Variable Capacity. SHS 1 capacity increase, 0.1 cooling per second. DHS (built into engine) 2.0 capacity increase, 0.2 cooling per second. DHS (mounted in mechbay) 1.4 capacity increase, 0.14 cooling per second.

So what could you have with 10 SHS, 10 DHS, and 22 DHS in MWO?

• 10 SHS Capacity: 30 base + 10 SHS = 40 capacity + master unlocks (Heat Containment 10% *2) = 48 capacity.
  
• 10 SHS Dissipation: 10 cooling per 10 seconds / 10 = 1 cooling per second. + master unlocks (Cool Run 7.5% *2) = 1.15 cooling per second.
  
• 10 DHS Capacity: 30 base +(10 DHS * 2.0) = 50 capacity + master unlocks (Heat Containment 10% *2) = 60 capacity.
  
• 10 DHS Dissipation: 20 cooling per 10 seconds / 10 = 2 cooling per second. + master unlocks (Cool Run 7.5% *2) = 2.3 cooling per second.
  
• 22 DHS Capacity: 30 base + (10 Engine DHS * 2.0) + (12 * 1.4 chassis DHS)= 66.8 capacity + master unlocks (Heat Containment 10% *2) = 80.16 capacity.
  
• 10 DHS Dissipation: 36.8 cooling per 10 seconds / 10 = 3.68 cooling per second. + master unlocks (Cool Run 7.5% *2) = 4.232 cooling per second.

You read that right. 80.16 capacity in MWO. Of course this varies. Your typical stock mech only has 40 heat capacity. A victor can go up to 90.56 capacity, but you wouldn't really be able to carry much in the way of weapons after that.

For more details, prime examples of identical builds in MW3 (TT) versus MWO using TT weapon heat and MWO weapon heat, and lots more visit this place here. Look for the Stare Dad comic. Enjoy.

[Modo44]

Please don't try to divert attention from the lack of a proper convergence mechanic. Really. Stop.

[Ralgas]

While it's not the fix, (and certainly not in it's current form) but i'd argue it is part of the fix. the reality and history of the ip is there probably wont be true weapon balance, and given there aren't more hardpoint restrictions ( to which i'm opposed from a variety standpoint) you're always going to see the best weapon for the current meta boated.

An expansion on the linking (ie everything) while it doesn't stop the practice, certainly makes it inefficient. From there it's up to individual weapon balance to get everything closer to each other in terms of dps/reasonable front load dmg(no matter which baseline is used).

Modo44, on 09 August 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

Please don't try to divert attention from the lack of a proper convergence mechanic. Really. Stop.

which hasn't featured in a mw to date and has many of it's own issues, a lot of the convergence proponents need to reassess exactly what they are asking for and the effects it will have on actual gameplay and mech builds instead of only what happens when you point and click. (here's a hint, you think spiders are bad now? wait until you can't hit them with fixed hit reg)

Edited by Ralgas, 09 August 2013 - 01:05 AM.

[Modo44]

Yes, make a multiplayer FPS without a mechanic staple of every succesful multiplayer FPS. What could possibly go wrong.

[Ralgas]

Modo44, on 09 August 2013 - 01:09 AM, said:

Yes, make a multiplayer FPS without a mechanic staple of every succesful multiplayer FPS. What could possibly go wrong.

except that other mutliplayer fps's dont have all of the large variance in target silhouettes, the accessibility of high damage homing weapons, and the targeting kill rules of a mech. Once again you introduce as many issues as you fix in this instance.

[Modo44]

It's not like alphastrike CT shots in MWO work similar to headshots in other games. Oh, wait.

[Kattspya]

Modo44, on 09 August 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

Please don't try to divert attention from the lack of a proper convergence mechanic. Really. Stop.

Convergence or rather aim is the cause of the problem but the solution is not removing aim. I'm all for a generally slower convergence with torso weapons being slower than hands. But that is not the only solution or most of it and has its own problems. It is very frustrating when the current convergence messes up for reasons of netcode and so on. That will only be magnified if you slow it down or remove it.

There are many answers: make more or all weapons damage over time, increase the number of hit sectors by a factor of many to slow down aim, slow down twist speed slightly for heavier chassis, make instant damage weapons less heat efficient and a hundred ways more. It all depends on the direction you want the game to take and how complex you want or can make it.

Please don't try to pretend your answer is the only answer.

[Ralgas]

Modo44, on 09 August 2013 - 01:19 AM, said:

It's not like alphastrike CT shots in MWO work similar to headshots in other games. Oh, wait.

and the system we're talking about reduce the damage taken/ the number of alpha's, funny thing that. Now you tell me how you get that cone mechanic of yours to pattern wider than an awesomes ct and not miss spiders altogether a lot, and also won't just lead to a new lrmaggedon or Mechhumper online™

Edit: Back on topic, Kon that's interesting. we really need the cap back down around 60 (max) as well. Used to say lose heat containment, but more and more i'm thinking set the heatsink add to cap at 1 per sink regardless of type might be better (for both the system and shs) shs would allow for higher caps space wise but at the cost of weight and dissipation..........

Edited by Ralgas, 09 August 2013 - 01:34 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

There isn't a single fix that will solve it all. There is no silver bullet.

But there is a large set of things that could be done to address the problem, and if you combine a few, you would have your solution.

Some of them can be new mechanics, but I think you do not actually need any new mechanic at all, you might just make changes to how some weapons differ from others. (If all weapons where duration-based like lasers, pinpoint accuracy from boating would mean a lot less.), or neuter certain differences (if convergence calculation also calculated correct lead time, then even a non-boat could alpha strike with pinpoint precison.)

You could also add some new mechanics into the mix.

I think changing the heat system is a very fundamental aspect and wise idea, not just because it deals with the pinpoint convergence alpha problem, but also with the "stock mech totally suck" problem. But we've gone over this roughly a million times, I am not optimistic that a million and one will yield better results.

[Khobai]

Quote

MW3, the supposedly most balanced MW to date, 30. Hit 30 and shutdown. Hit 45 and explode.
It still had sniper issues but the combo was 2 PPCs + 2 gauss, once per 10 seconds versus MWO's 2 ER PPCs + 1 Gauss once per 4 seconds. MW3 also had wide open areas with real no cover anywhere aside from hills. Lasers were instant damage.

The problem weapon in MW3 was ERLLs. They worked very much like PPCs do in MWO except they hit instantly and had 1000m range. Whenever you combine high damage, near-instant travel time, and long-range on a weapon its going to be unbalanced. So its not surprising PPCs are unbalanced in MWO.

To fix PPCs one of those attributes has to be nerfed. Either lower damage, lower range, or lower projectile speed. IMO lowering projectile speed is the least intrusive option of the three as it doesnt reduce effectiveness so much as increase the skill cap of using PPCs.

Quote

Autocannons did "burst fire" and so an AC/20 might fire 4 shots at 5 damage each.

No there was no burst fire in MW3. All Autocannons fired once every two seconds (UACs were once every second). So the AC/20 fired once every two seconds and it did full damage every time it hit. However it only got 5 ammo per ton so it did horrendous damage but that damage was capped by ammo limitations.

Armor was also only doubled in MW3, much like MWO. So you can imagine how fast an AC/20 firing every 2 seconds would kill a mech in MW3. What kept it balanced was actually the fact MW3 had 90s netcode and every single weapon would miss 99% of the time except for lasers. Which is why everyone used ERLLs for direct fire.

LRMs were also used on some maps for indirect fire and were actually a lot better than they are in MWO because you could point your mech at the angle you wanted your missiles to come out of your mech from so they didnt fly into the ground half the time. I wish that feature was in MWO.

But yeah the shoddy netcode in MW3, which was the worst netcode of ANY mechwarrior game, is the only reason its generally considered the most balanced of all the mechwarrior games lol.

Edited by Khobai, 09 August 2013 - 01:55 AM.

[Ialdabaoth]

I've felt for a long time that the heat cap should be (20 + engine HS), regardless of HS type.

This would allow double heat sinks to go back to truly being double (2.0 dissipation multiplier), without making them completely overpowered compared to singles - since you get the same heat cap regardless of which type you mount.

[Ralgas]

Khobai, on 09 August 2013 - 01:33 AM, said:

The problem weapon in MW3 was ERLLs. They worked very much like PPCs do in MWO except they hit instantly and had 1000m range.

Whenever you combine high damage, near-instant travel time, and long-range on a weapon its going to be unbalanced.

To fix PPCs one of those attributes has to be nerfed. Either lower damage, lower range, or lower projectile speed. IMO lowering projectile speed is the least intrusive option of the three and increases the skill cap of using PPCs.



No there was no burst fire in MW3. All Autocannons fired once per second. So the AC/20 fired once every second and it did full damage every time it hit. However it only got 5 ammo per ton so it did horrendous damage but that damage was capped by ammo limitations. Additionally the autocannons in MW3 had impact and recoil so putting shots in the same location was not as easy as MWO.

You'll probably find ppc's aren't alone in that boat (sic), but currently are being obscured by exactly how powerful and "goto" they are right now. uac's are deadly, although we need some more data on how ammo count plays out in 12v12 yet

[MrZakalwe]

MW3 was balanced? Lo0o0o0ooo00ooL All hail the 16 machine gun (think it was shadowcat) or the triple UAC 20 Sunder.

All washed down with hideous amounts of lag shooting.

Was really good on LAN, actually, but online it was terrible.

MWO is heading in the right direction; you don't really see alphas larger than 35 and slowing the projectile speed on PPCs would pretty much sort that out against moving targets and that when combined with the heat penalties recently introduced should leave the game in a pretty good state (although weapon balance still needs a cr*p load of work).

(p.s. My main mech is a quad PPC stalker and I'd really like PPC projectile speeds decreased just a little to make hitting fast moving targets at long range a little harder and to limit the ability of people to combine it with Gauss)

[Khobai]

Quote

You'll probably find ppc's aren't alone in that boat (sic), but currently are being obscured by exactly how powerful and "goto" they are right now. uac's are deadly, although we need some more data on how ammo count plays out in 12v12 yet

Dual UAC/5s are deadly but theyre not overpowered. Its still hard to kill light mechs with UAC/5s because of the damage spread and travel time. They also consume ammo. And they jam like crazy. The UAC/5 has a ton of built-in weaknesses unlike the ERPPC.

Dual ERPPCs on the other hand have no problem hitting light mechs, do 20 damage to a single location, dont use ammo, and have even better range than the UAC/5s. Oh and they weigh less and take up less crits. ERPPCs literally have no weakness (yes they generate a lot of heat but even lowly Cicadas can handle firing two of them so thats hardly a weakness).

Quote

you don't really see alphas larger than 35

Yes but even a 35 point alpha is too much. Medium mechs only have 35 armor on their side torsos. So hit them twice in the same side torso and their XL is gone. Hit them three times in the center torso and theyre dead. For the sake of Medium mechs the pinpoint alpha damage needs to be further reduced.

And its not just PPC/Gauss, a Jenner is capable of 36 damage with 6 pulse lasers. Thats the scary bit. So you have Jenners running around completely obliterating medium mechs in two or three shots. I really dont think Jenners should be able to do that. Jenners should be afraid of most mediums not completely dominate them.

Edited by Khobai, 09 August 2013 - 02:18 AM.

[MrZakalwe]

Khobai, on 09 August 2013 - 02:00 AM, said:

Dual UAC/5s are deadly but theyre not overpowered. Its still hard to kill light mechs with UAC/5s because of the damage spread and travel time. They also consume ammo. And they jam like crazy. The UAC/5 has a ton of built-in weaknesses unlike the ERPPC.

Dual ERPPCs on the other hand have no problem hitting light mechs, do 20 damage to a single location, dont use ammo, and even better range than the UAC/5s. Oh and they weigh less and take up less crits.



Yes but even a 35 point alpha is too much. Medium mechs only have 35 armor on their side torsos. So hit them twice in the same side torso and their XL is gone. Hit them three times in the center torso and theyre dead. For the sake of Medium mechs the pinpoint alpha damage needs to be further reduced.

And its not just PPC/Gauss, even a Jenner is capable of 36 damage with 6 pulse lasers. Thats the scary bit. So you have Jenners running around completely obliterating medium mechs in two or three shots. I really dont think Jenners should be able to do that. Jenners should be afraid of most mediums not completely dominate them.

Gauss and PPC shots move at different speeds, the only way you are going to hit a medium in the side torso with the combined alpha is if he is either not moving or not moving in relation to you.

Either is his fault.

[Khobai]

Quote

Gauss and PPC shots move at different speeds, the only way you are going to hit a medium in the side torso with the combined alpha is if he is either not moving or not moving in relation to you.

The only time that speed difference matters though is at long range. At short or medium range they will all hit the same location most of the time. And at long range even hitting a medium with a gauss in one location and two PPCs in another location is pretty devastating.

[riverslq]

they say coding convergence is 'difficult'
well, every other game out there has it.
lets take BF3 for example..
if you get shot, your cone of fire gets larger.
if you run, move, whatever, your cone of fire gets larger.
****, this happens in about every FPS game out there.
ITS NOT THAT HARD TO CODE.
(in theory, since its been done a million times over so far)

but i guess i'm just on an island here.

[Ralgas]

riverslq, on 09 August 2013 - 04:49 AM, said:

they say coding convergence is 'difficult'
well, every other game out there has it.
lets take BF3 for example..
if you get shot, your cone of fire gets larger.
if you run, move, whatever, your cone of fire gets larger.
****, this happens in about every FPS game out there.
ITS NOT THAT HARD TO CODE.
(in theory, since its been done a million times over so far)

but i guess i'm just on an island here.

With that theory you really are, mainly because movement based cof encourages staying still and using the hardest hitting longest range weapons (aka it makes the current meta even more appealing)

Edit: and it's not that coding it is hard, coding it in a way that doesn't break hit registration (before we even go into the bug thats already hurting it) is. We even had one on the arms till hsr.......

Edited by Ralgas, 09 August 2013 - 05:00 AM.