34 replies to this topic

[Threat Doc]

Well, I don't know if that's 100% accurate, but that's what my research has led me to understand, as well, though I thought TOPPS had been a major player. But, then, I'm not any manner of insider, just someone very interested in tracking these things, as well.

[Anastasius]

After reading this thread my head hurts.

[Paladin1]

empath, on 17 November 2011 - 03:40 PM, said:

Confused yet? This apparently is 'amateur hour' for corporate and intellectual property lawyers; may we never have to delve deeply into their world.

Actually it's interesting that you brought that up. I was trying to make a convert of one of my employer's corporate lawyers and only got so far as the name "Battletech" before they knew about the Unseen lawsuit. I was informed that the FASA/HG lawsuit over the unseen is now studied as how not to license a foreign owned IP in the United States. I was also informed that they had no interest in getting involved in a game designed by the same company (FASA) that perpetrated this mess because "anyone who ****** up a copyright case that bad hasn't got a hope in hell of getting a game universe right."

So yeah, we're actually even known in the Judicial System. Unfortunately it's not in a good way.

[Threat Doc]

My understanding was that Studio Nue gave FASA the rights to use the images, first, and then Harmony Gold approached them, as well, to make what we know as Robotech, and Studio Nue also gave them the rights. Then, with their false claim on original rights to those images, they sued FASA and were awarded damages in the range of $25,000,000. Had FASA found out that HG was doing Robotech, first, they could have sued HG.

Now, obviously, I'm no authority on what all took place, but if what I've expressed here, from my research, is even remotely correct, then HG went to court under false pretenses which, these days, would mean jail time for HG once the court was made aware of it.

[Mercurial]

I think it's a little more complicated then that, Kay, and it's a bit different from some of the versions I've heard of. I heard one that suggests FASA actually pre-emptively nixed the Unseen because they realized how treacherous their ground was in the first place. I heard another version that suggested the unseen 'fire' didn't really start until HG liscensed out it's Robotech models for a toy-line for Exo-Squad (which I remember buying a bunch of because I wanted really awesome B-tech figures, though I never got a Marauder. BLAH). I vaguely recall that FASA cried foul, then HG turned around and sued the hell out of them. Chances are we won't ever get a real story until most of the major parties are gone.

Despite that though, most versions of the story highlight what a **** move HG made as well as the fact NUE gave FASA theokay to use images., so I'm inclined to suspect foul play. Hell, HG was the reason the original Macross series took so long (and almost didn't make it) stateside in its original form--any attempts for the longest time were blocked cold by HG. These days they've literally become nothing more than copyright squatters. Haven't done anything majorly relevant for a while now (though when I double checked I also found out they were a real estate company? The hell? )

Edited by Mercurial, 17 November 2011 - 10:28 PM.

[Threat Doc]

It usually is more complicated than anyone other than the guys at the very middle of it know. Thanks for the info, too, and with that I've been suspecting foul play for a while, but moreso now. In reading the articles I have, it sounds like FASA got screwed because of how young and in-knowledgable, if that's even a word, hehe, they were at the time. Had they been older, perhaps had a few more dollars in the bank, they could have really stuck it to HG, I think. The law is really not as complicated as a lot of folks make it out to be, though the LACK of law or case law, in this case would have been to their detriment, as well. The culture, at the time, wouldn't have supported a game as much as television, anyway.

Regardless, it's really too bad they took the hit they did; I wonder what direction(s) they would have taken had HG kept their brand of ignorance to themselves?

You know what really kills me? No, not a stake through the heart, hehe, though that would be effective, too. What gets me the most is that, for the longest time, I loved both Robotech and BattleTech. When Robotech went off the air in Salt Lake Valley, my second year of High School I think it was, I simply concentrated everything into BattleTech. I, of course, picked up, and somewhat enjoyed, Shadow Chronicles, but BattleTech, despite the lack of ability to play, is still foremost for me. Finding out about HGs shenanigans just makes me dislike them more, and strengthens the BT enterprise for me. So, HG may have won the court battle but, I think, overall, they've lost the war.

[Amarus Cameron]

empath, on 17 November 2011 - 03:40 PM, said:

Confused yet? This apparently is 'amateur hour' for corporate and intellectual property lawyers; may we never have to delve deeply into their world.

I Star Commander Amarus Cameron, of the glorious 2nd Jaguar Guards, do challenge the pathetic freebirth who guards my prize to a trial of possession, what forces defend the Battletech IP!

(see much more simple)

[OnLashoc]

Edited by OnLashoc, 18 November 2011 - 08:40 AM.

[Sleeve98]

It's the Baal syndrome that's at the heart of this issue.

Intellectual property has been exhalted to a kind of golden calf: it's how whenever Steamboat Willie's copyright is about to fall into the public domain, Congress is prompted to pass another extension. This fetishization of assigning material value to a concept is what the symptom's all about.


Years ago, because I deemed Battletech was too slow and demanding* than for what a guy with a job and a family could accommodate (we are the 99%), I took up playing Steve Jackson's Ogre again. But here's another self-interested, IP-worshipping *******. He refuses to find a way to produce and distribute his own product, whining all the time about printing costs. eBay is pretty-much the only way you can get one in the twenty-first century; that copy (at the link) went for $65.00, and I picked mine up from a comic store in the late eighties for five bucks!

And yet, here he goes again, ******** his customers. A new box set for a hundred bucks, putting it beyond the reach of 99% of his market. Who cares about the fans, anyway? (Now, I'm fully aware that these days Steve gets his money almost exclusively from Munchkin - and that business is business - but he wouldn't be the comfortable snob he is today if it weren't for Ogre.)

Most business models in the market these days, that is, the modern collector card/figure games, is about leveraging the need for additional purchases for competitiveness, in order to forcibly inflate revenue, which in turn introduces the element of elitism - the more you buy, the more of an advantage you have in the game, which gives all the power to the player with more pocket change. There's so much of an investment required on the part of players, in both money and time, to get up to speed with Games Workshop's Lord of the Rings getup that it'll turn you right off.


The point here is that, even though you may never know of anyone more steeped in the (fictional) premise of the product, the winningest strategies, and so forth than its creators/owners, I don't believe I've seen any evidence that they actually feel the same way about their own progeny as, say, the feelings experienced by the couple who go to a ComiCon dressed as klingons - they simply can't relate**. It's why these Wiesman and Harmony Gold situations exist at all. It's why Disney pillages and plunders the public domain, only to keep others from doing the same to them. It's why Microsoft keeps you from playing a Mechwarrior game unless you're running their OS.***

It's IP worship, this fetish for the Golden Calf, all the way around, on the part of everyone involved, from the kid in the comic shop to the CEO of the game's owning company, though done in completely different ways by all of them - and for the most hollow of pursuits in each case. It's just that it's usually the owners who fight like children and make everyone else miserable.

Whatta mess.


(*If you insist on an explanation, I'll just point out that if you scale up a Battletech game beyond the QSR, even a little bit, you're gonna be there for hours. I've only ever heard that Starfleet Battles is slower. Go ahead, deny it. In fact, there's such a stigma on Battletech (face it) that it's easier to convince new players to try Ogre with the line, "this is a board game: this isn't Battletech in the dorm until four a.m.; I wouldn't do that to you." And the investment in materials, learning the rules (not to mention the fiction), finding, purchasing and painting miniatures, drafting chassis load-outs, planning battles and arranging a schedule to execute it - it's a rotten ROI, considering all you have to do to get ready for whatever precious playtime that you can arrange. This is why the video games, and playing them online, is the better option, and I can't wait until it's all settled and behind us so we can get on with shootin' Mechs.)

(**the only exceptions that come to mind are Wendy and Richard Pini.)

(***save the emails, I know about the WINE bidness, and I also know that only single player functions work because of DirectPlay)

Edited by Sleeve98, 03 December 2011 - 09:25 AM.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

completely agree there Sleeve; my personal experience of this pay-to-win tabletop was 40k and boy
what a slap to the face it was. Each new rule edition (coming out every ~5y to the tune of $50-60)
then new codices for each army cause of the new ed (to the next tune of $20-30) plus new minis.
Then on top of it all, space marines just kept getting boosted every time a new codex rolled around.
I laid out this issue in another post.

I recently took a look at the QSR rule set, and was kind of dissapointed that they didnt seem to understand
one of the core problems with the game; shooting. In 40k you roll twice, once to hit, then to see if you damage.
Now I'm not asking for anything that simple, but ******* Heavy Gear and its Silhouette game system does
mech combat better than this!

[Threat Doc]

That's why I think 40k blows... two dice rolls is crap, it accounts for NOTHING. BattleTech at least attempts to make life difficult and, frankly, I don't mind the math, I enjoy it, and my sons enjoyed it every game we've played thus far. There's nothing wrong with either game, they fit well within their own settings, and it's meant to be that way... however, I can't get into 40k because there's nothing to it.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

dont get me wrong kay, I wasnt saying that 40k tactical methods
were superior, or it was better. i was merely commenting that other
game systems seem to be faster than battletech at resolving
repetitive tasks like shooting

[Threat Doc]

Okay, I understand, but it sounded like someone was beating up my starter tactical game, and my favorite sci-fi universe of all time over a mechanic, so I got defensive. I've never been able to play anything Warhammer related except the Fantasy Role-Playing Game, 1st AND 2nd Edition, because the system has always been what I consider to be too shallow. I know the lore work done by GW is beyond this universe, but beyond that reading, which I still don't want to do because it's way too much, hehe, I don't want anything to do with Warhammer. For the record, Warhammer 2nd Edition FRP is the ONLY game I have purchased every single book or PDF file for, and I love that game over many others.

As for the repetitive shooting bit, it IS repetitive, but once you have the modifier structure down, and it's really not that hard to memorize, it becomes almost second nature. Base 4 (or other gunnery skill) + Movement (Walk 1, Run 2, Jump 3) + Your 'Mechs Damage (Shoulder actuator +2 for that arm's weapons, Upper and/or Lower Arm Actuator +1 each), + Each Sensor hit (+2), + Heat Effects (From heat chart on 'Mech sheet), + Intervening Terrain (don't have this memorized yet), + Enemy 'Mech Hexes Moved (0-2=0, 3-4=+1, 5-6=+2, 7-9=+3, 10+=+4, 'Mech Jumped +1). Hmmm I think I got it all, but then again my sons and I only began playing again four weeks ago after a 17 year dry spell.

Not hard, hehe.

[Atlas3060]

Terrain modifiers from memory, for the basic terrains:
Partial cover is +1, leg shots hit the dirt
Light woods +1
Heavy woods +2
Smoke +1
LOS is blocked if terrain in between you and target is higher than target or shooter, or you have (3 light woods or two lights and one heavy) in between the shooter and target. Woods you occupy don't factor in to the LOS but do factor in modifiers.

[Sleeve98]

See?

No, I really like Battletech. It's just too heavy.