293 replies to this topic

[AC]

MustrumRidcully, on 12 August 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

When we start seeing lots of Triple MG Hunchbacks, Quad MG Spiders, Cicadas, Cataphracts and Hex-MG Jagermechs, I would really start considering whether they overdid it or not.

You have to ask yourself if someone using an MG really seems more powerful than using one of the plenty alternative builds (including other mechs) available in that weight class.

I found a config on a Jagger DD that someone had moderate success with. 2 LBX10 and 4MG. He had to wait for a mech to get cored, but he was working with a lance. His lance mates cored mechs and he played cleanup. It was a great strategy and I was actually pleased to see these under used and un-loved weapons get some play time.

That mech is easily defeated at range, so to be quite honest I am not sure what all the fuss is about.

[tayhimself]

AC, on 13 August 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

In the OP's words, the main issue apears to be the unhittable spiders, not the machine guns themselves. No one cries found when a hunchie has 3 or a dragon. It truly is the spider that causes issues.

Of course being un-hittable is a major bonus, but it does not explain why you see more MG spiders than you do ECM spiders. What other mech chassis has the ECM variant as the less popular one?

The primary reason you don't see MGs on bigger slower mechs is the range issue. You really need to close to 180m or so to use them and it takes a dragon and hunchie a good while longer than a spider to get in close. Especially if they get stuck on a pebble on the way in which isn't a problem for the spider with it's jumpjets. The secondary is that they are much easier to hit while closing as you mention.

A 3 dps weapon (vs internals) that weighs 0.5 ton and can be mounted up to 6 at a time. How does this make any sense?

[stjobe]

tayhimself, on 13 August 2013 - 07:51 AM, said:

A 3 dps weapon (vs internals) that weighs 0.5 ton and can be mounted up to 6 at a time. How does this make any sense?

Because it has 1 DPS vs armour, really short range, a 100% time-on-target requirement to get that DPS, and something no other weapon has: Spread. That's how.

[Gallowglas]

The MG is pathetic against external armor. Even spamming someone with 6 of them is like slapping someone with oven mitts on, which is to say: not very damaging, but highly annoying. Once you're internal, however, that's when the magic happens. If you're getting can-openered (yes, that's now a verb), it's because they're using another weapon to do it or someone is helping them. So, yes, MG's are absolutely sick against an open mech. Against a fresh opponent the biggest threat they pose is the annoyance factor of having round spanging (yes, that's also now a verb) off your cockpit.

Edited by Gallowglas, 13 August 2013 - 08:12 AM.

[Rippthrough]

Oh, and the fire rate depends on your latency, which is another one that doesn't get in the calcs....

[Carrioncrows]

AC, on 13 August 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

I found a config on a Jagger DD that someone had moderate success with. 2 LBX10 and 4MG. He had to wait for a mech to get cored, but he was working with a lance. His lance mates cored mechs and he played cleanup. It was a great strategy and I was actually pleased to see these under used and un-loved weapons get some play time.

That mech is easily defeated at range, so to be quite honest I am not sure what all the fuss is about.

That's like waiting for a teammate to do 80% of the work for you then you swoop in with a keel steal impressed at how quick you killed him when he only had 20% hp left.

How about a weapon that works with 100% efficiency, 100% of the time on 100% of armor and structure.

[Hotthedd]

Gallowglas, on 13 August 2013 - 08:07 AM, said:

The MG is pathetic against external armor. Even spamming someone with 6 of them is like slapping someone with oven mitts on, which is to say: not very damaging, but highly annoying. Once you're internal, however, that's when the magic happens. If you're getting can-openered (yes, that's now a verb), it's because they're using another weapon to do it or someone is helping them. So, yes, MG's are absolutely sick against an open mech. Against a fresh opponent the biggest threat they pose is the annoyance factor of having round spanging (yes, that's also now a verb) off your cockpit.

This is simply not true, unfortunately. Maybe it is a mistake on the MG coding, but MGs are cutting through armor relatively easily now. The crit multiplier needs to go. There is no realistic reason a MG round would do more damage to internals than any other round.

[Mister Blastman]

MGs are a non-issue. With the current PPC/Gauss meta, they are a refreshing change to troll around with. If the PPC doods get mad, you hose them down some more.

Think about it, long range mechs deserve to be beaten up when fought up close. They shouldn't dominate everywhere.

[Panzerkampfwagen IV]

The MG is not the problem, fix the unkillable spider and the MG qq will go away.

[MaddMaxx]

AC, on 13 August 2013 - 05:45 AM, said:

In the OP's words, the main issue apears to be the unhittable spiders, not the machine guns themselves. No one cries found when a hunchie has 3 or a dragon. It truly is the spider that causes issues.

But that Spider has to keep moving Maximum speed to stay alive and the MG is not a weapon that is conducive to high damage when the user is spraying MG shells all hell west and crooked. I

If you fear a Spider, that has to walk straight in from >125m, in order to damage you, and you don't respond properly, then it isn't the Spider that is dong it wrong.

[TOGSolid]

Hotthedd, on 13 August 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

This is simply not true, unfortunately. Maybe it is a mistake on the MG coding, but MGs are cutting through armor relatively easily now. The crit multiplier needs to go. There is no realistic reason a MG round would do more damage to internals than any other round.

I really wish people would stop using that word when trying to discuss anything about this game. This is Battletech people, and around here common sense is Lostech. That has been a hard, inarguable rule since version 1 of the TT game.

[Hotthedd]

TOGSolid, on 13 August 2013 - 11:02 AM, said:

I really wish people would stop using that word when trying to discuss anything about this game. This is Battletech people, and around here common sense is Lostech. That has been a hard, inarguable rule since version 1 of the TT game.

MGs were crit-seekers in TT because of the multiple hit location mechanic, not because they did EXTRA damage vs internals.

[stjobe]

Hotthedd, on 13 August 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

This is simply not true, unfortunately. Maybe it is a mistake on the MG coding, but MGs are cutting through armor relatively easily now. The crit multiplier needs to go.

Nothing has changed about the MG vs armour damage (or, for that matter, the damage vs Components), what's changed is damage versus Internal Structure.

MGs still only do 1 DPS vs armour, there's no way they're "cutting through armour relatively easy", and it has nothing to do with the crit multiplier (since that only applies to crits, and the extra damage is only vs Internal Structure) - it would be blindingly obvious to everyone if it applied to armour damage, not just to you. The forums would be ablaze the likes of which you've never seen if the MG did 3 DPS vs armour.

In short, you're either mistaken or wilfully misrepresenting the facts.

[Gremlich Johns]

One Medic Army, on 10 August 2013 - 03:56 PM, said:

And yet, they are explicitly described as 20mm cannons.
Smaller than the Gau-8's 30mm, but still a respectable anti-material round.

The correct spelling for what kind of round you describe it as is anti-materiel. And the canon states anti-infantry anyway...

And just stay away from the MG mechs - 100m or more until knockdown is reintroduced. If ever.

[Rippthrough]

Gremlich Johns, on 13 August 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

is anti-materiel.

Maybe if you're French, and can't spell 'contre'

[TOGSolid]

Hotthedd, on 13 August 2013 - 11:34 AM, said:

MGs were crit-seekers in TT because of the multiple hit location mechanic, not because they did EXTRA damage vs internals.

This is a better way to frame your argument. I just hate seeing people use the word "realistic" when trying to argue anything involving Battletech.

[DegeneratePervert]

TOGSolid, on 13 August 2013 - 02:29 PM, said:

This is a better way to frame your argument. I just hate seeing people use the word "realistic" when trying to argue anything involving Battletech.

80's Sci-Fi future is the best kind of future.

Running around with 2x LBX, 4x MG, 2x ML on my DD is pretty lulzy. Late game you become hell on wheels, shredding through the damaged opposition with ease... early game, you become a light mechs worst nightmare, blowing them to pieces in seconds because of the random critty-ness of your build.

Machine guns are finally, FINALLY in a good place, and are not OP in the least.

PS: Spider pop is up because the little guys are super hard to hit these days, not because of the MG buff. The MG buff is finally making the Spider K worth taking.

[NinetyProof]

The issues with the OP's numbers are he is assuming every ammo fired actually hits ... and it doesn't. You literally have to face hug before most of your ammo is hitting most of the time.

So let's see ... you have to be super close, and even then some of it could miss if you and your target is moving. The target has to already be opened up ... and you have to sacrifice some of the best weapons in the game, for what is arguably one of the worst weapons, or at best, is a one-trick-pony weapon.

So yes, if all the stars align, the MG can be good.

Then again, if you take a "pack" of Quad AC/5 Jaggers, stuff does much quicker then the same pack of MG jaggers.

The main issue right now is Hit Detection. If that "pack" of lights with MG's could actually be consistently hit? they would be consistently dead and not be able to get "into" MG range at all.

The only issue with MG's are the broken game issues surrounding hit detection in general.

[Naduk]

MGs are finally in a nice place (hasnt happened since Mechwarriror2) and you want to nerf them ? get real

you still need to boat MG's for them to be effective AND they are useless against armour
this forces build diversity

and quite frankly id rather see everyone boating MG's than the current ppc/gauss meta

[Gallowglas]

Hotthedd, on 13 August 2013 - 10:43 AM, said:

This is simply not true, unfortunately. Maybe it is a mistake on the MG coding, but MGs are cutting through armor relatively easily now. The crit multiplier needs to go. There is no realistic reason a MG round would do more damage to internals than any other round.

I patently disagree. I've run a 6 MG Jager for a little over 100 matches now and MG's do jack on their own until armor is breached. If I had an easy means of posting a video, I would but it absolutely requires a secondary weapon to strip the external armor because the other mech will kill you before you get to their internals without it. Yes, I've had several strings of 6+ kill matches, but it wasn't because the MG's were breaching armor at some amazing rate. Almost any other weapon I'd care to name would do that part faster.