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Alternative Approach To Balance. I.e. Remove Heat-Scaling.


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#21 MisterFiveSeven

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 08:13 AM

View PostIrrelevantFish, on 12 August 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

They already did. On Tuesday, both standard and ER PPCs were bumped up one heat point. I think it's helped quite a bit (Gauss+2xERPPC builds are no longer able to hang with brawlers) but I think a little more might be called for, though maybe not a full point.


+1 heat is meaningless.

This did nothing to change builds that mix ppc's and gauss.

#22 The Faceless

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 08:34 AM

Has anyone ever suggested using recoil as a mechanic for this game. you could use a similar effect to the impact of weapons fire upon a Mech. If your weapons being fired in rapid succession made it difficult for you to bring your targeting reticele back into place is could have the desired effect. I've not really had time to think this idea fully through all of its flaws and virtues (it just occurred to me a moment ago) but it might be worth the discussion.

#23 Cato Phoenix

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 08:49 AM

View PostUnbound Inferno, on 11 August 2013 - 07:09 AM, said:

Because.... (fill in random PGI blabber)

Seriously, I don't know. Battletech's damage scale and Segmented Armor system was based around inaccuracy, and here we have not only pinpoint accuracy but also group fire convergence that allows an incredible amount of spike damage in the spot of the gunner's choice.



Yet none of the other Mechwarrior titles are. A tabletop game doesn't transmute into an FPS as easily as a previous MW title translates.

#24 MaddMaxx

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 11:04 AM

View PostHillslam, on 12 August 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

to the OT:

one simple reason: PGI has a b0n3r for heat.

been there since day 1. they want heat to play a MAJOR role in the game and continue to push it front and center.


Sort of like TT does right? Get Hot and have issues. Hmmm...
What if your Mech got to 65% heat and then suddenly ran at only half speed?
You be OK with that?
Or if at 80% the cockpit starts to go dark, right in the middle of a big battle.
You be Ok with that?

That bone® you speak of, likely saves you from your own trigger happy self. You should thank PGI, not be yet another douche who can do nothing but complain about their decisions on how the MWO Heat scale works in game.

Edited by MaddMaxx, 12 August 2013 - 11:04 AM.


#25 aseth

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 01:22 PM

I don't want a cone of fire, but I do want convergence time. I mean, there's an elite skill (Pinpoint) that improves your convergence time by 15%... That suggests that things shouldn't be pinpoint convergence without holding the reticle over a target for a couple of seconds.

It'd be a good way to buff pulse lasers too - they could have significantly faster convergence.

#26 IrrelevantFish

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 01:01 AM

View PostMisterFiveSeven, on 12 August 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

+1 heat is meaningless.

This did nothing to change builds that mix ppc's and gauss.

That "meaningless" point of heat represents five seconds of heat dissipation for an internal DHS, and seven for an external DHS. It's a big deal, and it has most certainly cause significant gameplay changes. Jump-snipers have to be a lot more careful once the enemy pushes in and I'm seeing significantly fewer PPCs (particularly of the ER variety) on the field.

Now, is +1 heat enough to fix the PPC problem? As I said before, I don't believe it is. Are PPCs no longer the dominant weapon on the battlefield? Obviously not. Nevertheless, I find it baffling that you find such a heat nerf to be insignificant.

#27 MrZakalwe

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 01:12 AM

I just read this
And this is crazy
But ghost heat's working

so Gauss next maybe?


Seriously the Ghost heat system has actually fixed most of the issues- it's ugly and it needs some tuning but it's working.

I didn't think it would.

#28 Ralgas

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 01:42 AM

View PostMrZakalwe, on 13 August 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

I just read this
And this is crazy
But ghost heat's working

so Gauss next maybe?


Seriously the Ghost heat system has actually fixed most of the issues- it's ugly and it needs some tuning but it's working.

I didn't think it would.


All weapons linked, gauss set at 1same as ac20,additional heat streamlined. Boating alpha's fixed.....

Edited by Ralgas, 13 August 2013 - 01:47 AM.


#29 MisterFiveSeven

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 03:19 AM

View PostIrrelevantFish, on 13 August 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

That "meaningless" point of heat represents five seconds of heat dissipation for an internal DHS, and seven for an external DHS. It's a big deal, and it has most certainly cause significant gameplay changes. Jump-snipers have to be a lot more careful once the enemy pushes in and I'm seeing significantly fewer PPCs (particularly of the ER variety) on the field.

Now, is +1 heat enough to fix the PPC problem? As I said before, I don't believe it is. Are PPCs no longer the dominant weapon on the battlefield? Obviously not. Nevertheless, I find it baffling that you find such a heat nerf to be insignificant.


Uh...if you only had one heat sink in your mech?

Which is not the case? My Misery has 16...so .625 seconds more time to dissipate from x2erppc?

Meaningless.

#30 MrZakalwe

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 03:35 AM

View PostMisterFiveSeven, on 13 August 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:


Uh...if you only had one heat sink in your mech?

Which is not the case? My Misery has 16...so .625 seconds more time to dissipate from x2erppc?

Meaningless.

Mine runs 21 DHSs to keep 4 PPCs firing and I've gotta say I have noticed the difference.

You can tell it's been effective because PPCs aren't the only weapon you see anymore and I had to put my 5 PPC Stalker out to pasture.

#31 MrZakalwe

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 03:39 AM

View PostMisterFiveSeven, on 13 August 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:


Uh...if you only had one heat sink in your mech?

Which is not the case? My Misery has 16...so .625 seconds more time to dissipate from x2erppc?

Meaningless.

Mine runs 21 DHSs to keep 4 PPCs firing and I've gotta say I have noticed the difference.

You can tell it's been effective because PPCs aren't the only weapon you see anymore and I had to put my 5 PPC Stalker out to pasture.

#32 MisterFiveSeven

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 03:52 AM

View PostMrZakalwe, on 13 August 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

Mine runs 21 DHSs to keep 4 PPCs firing and I've gotta say I have noticed the difference.

You can tell it's been effective because PPCs aren't the only weapon you see anymore and I had to put my 5 PPC Stalker out to pasture.


x4 ppc was almost too hot before though... really wasn't that good of a build.

Keep in mind that's what I ran for months before I saw the light and bought the brawling shark that is my Misery :ph34r:

#33 MrZakalwe

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 04:04 AM

View PostMisterFiveSeven, on 13 August 2013 - 03:52 AM, said:


x4 ppc was almost too hot before though... really wasn't that good of a build.

Keep in mind that's what I ran for months before I saw the light and bought the brawling shark that is my Misery :lol:

Out of interest how do you gear a brawling Misery? I just use mine as a 3F with a C-Bill boost (4 PPCs, 21DHS,standard 275) and for the record it doesn't run as hot as you'd think :ph34r:

#34 MisterFiveSeven

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Posted 13 August 2013 - 08:13 AM

View PostMrZakalwe, on 13 August 2013 - 04:04 AM, said:

Out of interest how do you gear a brawling Misery? I just use mine as a 3F with a C-Bill boost (4 PPCs, 21DHS,standard 275) and for the record it doesn't run as hot as you'd think ;)


x2 erppc, ac20 (4 tons ammo), LL in the CT, std 275, 16 DHS

I use to run it w/x3 ppc and sniped a lot. The LL is a great finisher if the target's ct is red because the recycle time on the ppc's and ac can bite you brawling, and means that I have some backup weaponry w/torso loss. I'm a pretty sick shot with the ac20 (not to toot my own horn), and I really like the increased durability of the ac20 over the gauss. In addition, w/most of my enagagement starting around 500m, the more limited range of the ac20 isn't as bad as you'd think. Before I started mixing booze and stompy robots, my KDR was well over 4; now it hovers around 3.5, but part of that was probably due to my skyrocketing elo and the increased quality of my opponents B)

Edit :: Also, if the LPL ever doesn't suck, i'd consider trying to replace the LL for the shorter beam duration (and maybe switch the erppc's to regulars).

Edited by MisterFiveSeven, 13 August 2013 - 08:17 AM.


#35 IrrelevantFish

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 02:05 PM

View PostMisterFiveSeven, on 13 August 2013 - 03:19 AM, said:

Uh...if you only had one heat sink in your mech?

Which is not the case? My Misery has 16...so .625 seconds more time to dissipate from x2erppc?

Meaningless.

My point was that you'd need to add ~2 external DHS per PPC to a mech in order to make it as heat efficient as it was before (ie, in order to dissipate the extra heat by the time your PPC recycled), but let's put it another way:

Since brawling almost always entails riding the edge of a shut-down for a protracted period (if it doesn't, you're doing it wrong), taking 0.625 seconds longer to cool off between shots is effectively a 0.625 second nerf to your recycle rate. That's the same as the difference between large lasers and PPCs, and if I may refer to your most recent post in this topic:

View PostMisterFiveSeven, on 13 August 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

The LL is a great finisher if the target's ct is red because the recycle time on the ppc's and ac can bite you brawling

Now, obviously you can still get off a few alphas and do some serious damage before you start running into your heat limit, but if the fight goes on for long, you're not going to be nearly as effective as you were pre-nerf.

#36 Dimento Graven

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 02:12 PM

Aspects to keep in mind when considering the problem:

1. TT is 3rd Person view, so there's no means of adding gunnery skill other than through a small die roll modifier, or to add a lot more funky mechanics that can take a 5 minute per round game and turn it into 25 minutes per round. The mechanic in TT was done for game play expediency and what can be done in a 3rd person only view. Some of this was accommodated by location modifiers depending on what portion of the 'mech you could see, too. After all it wasn't possible to not hit what you couldn't see, ie: legs, when a 'mech was standing behind a Level 1 obstruction.

2. MWO is a first person shooter built on the Crysis2 engine, which was designed from the first person carrying and firing a single weapon at a time perspective.

3. As mentioned earlier, PGI has taken bits and pieces of the BT mechanic and implemented them in this game, missing the corresponding balance features inherit in TT play.

4. PGI has actually bastardized various values in TT, armor per ton, ammo per ton, heat per shot, and more specifically weapon ranges.

5. As mentioned in 4, when it comes to weapon ranges, PGI has actually increased them. Not only that, they compounded this by adding in an "Extended Range" component, giving weapons ridiculous ranges when compared to TT. Given that in TT a single hex was 30 meters, and that LONGEST range you could fire a gauss and actually hit was 22 hexes (30meters times 22 hexes), the LONGEST effective range of a gauss rifle was: 660 meters, regardless of your skill or any modifiers.

6. Lack of a comprehensive Heat Affects table allows repetitive use of Alpha Strike as fast as the weapons can possibly be fired. Something not typically seen in standard TT. In BT, LONG before you risked actual shut down there were other affects that would be activated based on your level of heat adding risks to using alpha strike, ie: It had a balancing factor. MWO, with no heat affects until your heat is beyond 99%, has nothing to balance alpha strike.

What this adds up to is to make MWO more like we expect our BT experience to be 3 things have to happen:

1. Add a comprehensive Heat Affects table for heat levels below 99% to add risk to over use of alpha strikes.

2. Reduce weapon ranges to TT standard, alleviating probably 30%-50% percent of the sniper opportunity.

3. Change the aiming mechanism to add 'pin point' ambiguity at LONG range, but leaving close in 'pin point' only slightly affected.

I'll see if I can't describe point 3 more completely. Essentially instead of having a pin point aiming reticule, you'd have a circle in the center of your screen of say a .5 cm diameter.

In that circle the 'pin point' that you previously used for aiming would exist, but it would be invisible, and in that circle it would randomly drift moment to moment. So that, at LONG range, when a 'mech is really 'small' in your FP perspective, the entire mech could fit inside that circle, but you wouldn't be able to see exactly where the 'pin point' of aim was. It could be dead center, it could be on the outer edge somewhere, and when you fired, it used that point to fire the weapons. You might hit but you only have a percentage chance of hitting exactly where you want, or you might miss entirely. You could possibly expand the number of invisible pin points to match the number of weapons the 'mech is carrying too, so that each weapon could end up with a different aiming point, eliminating 100% weapon convergence.

Now, taking that same .5 cm diameter circle and close in on the target 'mech, as you got close the target 'mech from your perspective grows in size, the targeting circle covers less and less of the 'mech until the point where the circle covers only a section of arm, or left/right torso that you're point at.

This method would simulate the LONG RANGE ambiguity, eliminate 100% convergence, but still allow for close in targeting.

Also for a heat affects, one of the things you could do to affect firing ability while under high heat is to cause the targeting circle to grow from .5 cm to 1 cm on up to as wide as the screen. A very cool affect that does a great approximation of simulating TT heat affects on gunnery skill.

It even adds the possibility of adding a "Firing Computer" control module that could be purchased just like current modules (the NON-MC ones) to reduce the pin points to ONE pin point, adding accuracy, but still maintaining LONG range ambiguity...

My thoughts anyway...

#37 MisterFiveSeven

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Posted 14 August 2013 - 02:59 PM

View PostIrrelevantFish, on 14 August 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

My point was that you'd need to add ~2 external DHS per PPC to a mech in order to make it as heat efficient as it was before (ie, in order to dissipate the extra heat by the time your PPC recycled), but let's put it another way:

Since brawling almost always entails riding the edge of a shut-down for a protracted period (if it doesn't, you're doing it wrong), taking 0.625 seconds longer to cool off between shots is effectively a 0.625 second nerf to your recycle rate. That's the same as the difference between large lasers and PPCs, and if I may refer to your most recent post in this topic:
Now, obviously you can still get off a few alphas and do some serious damage before you start running into your heat limit, but if the fight goes on for long, you're not going to be nearly as effective as you were pre-nerf.


My meaningless I didn't mean nonexistent. You misunderstand.

PPC's are still the best weapon in the game. I understand the point you are trying to make and I agree to an extent, but I don't see any fewer PPC's in my matches. It is still better than the alternatives.

That's the point I'm trying to make. I think if you up the PPC recycle time to 5 or 6 seconds, it becomes a balanced weapon again. It would then be (roughly) on par with large lasers (without breaking out the calculator).





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