16 replies to this topic

[Foxfire]

Seems half of my matches today end up with nothing but PPC /Guass snipers hugging corners, too scared to see what color the mech they are shooting at is, let alone have any sort of real fight.

It makes the game one dimensional and extremely boring.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Foxfire, on 11 August 2013 - 10:35 AM, said:

Seems half of my matches today end up with nothing but PPC /Guass snipers hugging corners, too scared to see what color the mech they are shooting at is, let alone have any sort of real fight.

It makes the game one dimensional and extremely boring.

This is mostly because of the 12 vs 12 and smaller maps. The mech density on these maps makes it so the first person to step out of cover gets focused fired and dies within seconds. The only option then it to try to stay in cover and slowly weaken the enemy and hope you weaken them to a breaking point before they weaken you because once you hit that breaking point, the match is over and it is just clean up.

Incidently this is kind of how real battles work. Two forces meet each other and eventually once reaches a point where attrition causes loss of unit effectiveness which in turn typically causes a loss of moral, then at some point, one side or the other can no longer stand up to the pressure and breaks. A good commander can tell when his forces are at this breaking point and will set up a withdrawl in good order before reaching the break point, however, there is no retreat in MWO so break points happen. This is also why you see sweeps as often as you do in MWO.

[Wintersdark]

Push, if the opposing team "out snipes" you, push. Don't just do the same. A 2PPC/Gauss mech is very dangerous, but as people have all moved to regular PPC's instead of the (now very hot) erppc's, those mechs fire very slowly and do very little damage up close.

Push.

Often, this means outlining it in chat first. Explain the problem: They're winning the sniper war, you must push. Tell them you'll lead the push, but you all must push NOW. Then lead.

But your team will win. As people learn how that works - and they do learn - game quality improves for all.

Edit: This doesn't necessarily require a direct forward push, of course, it can be via a flank, or whatever else, anything to reduce the amount of incoming fire. Just lead.

Edited by Wintersdark, 11 August 2013 - 12:59 PM.

[Foxfire]

You can call for push, you can beg for push.. you can make a push.. but most often it is just you that makes the push and you get picked apart by the corner huggers on the other side.

[Wintersdark]

Foxfire, on 11 August 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

You can call for push, you can beg for push.. you can make a push.. but most often it is just you that makes the push and you get picked apart by the corner huggers on the other side.

You know, I've been playing since November. In that time, I've seen many people take a leadership role. I've done it myself a couple times, but I freely admit - I'm a lazy ******* who hates leading.

In those thousands of drops? I've never seen people fail to push when the person leading:
1) Wasn't an *******. That is, hasn't been calling people names and berating them.
2) Outlined (albiet briefly) why is was necessary.
3) Actually lead the push.

Not ever. Not even once.

I've seen that leader die. A lot. I've died when I did that - a lot. I've done it knowing I would die and instead just worked to absorb as much fire as possible to buy my team time.

But you know what? In all those times, when someone stepped up and took the reins? I can confidently say at least 90% of the time we won.

On the other hand, you get people berating their lance mates, calling them names, being abusive or generally assholeish. These people? They're left to charge out alone.

There's a lesson to be learned here.

[Appogee]

Sometimes, when the skies are dark with solid gray streams of incoming LRMs, there is no option but to stay behind cover.

[FearTheAmish]

seemed to work pretty well for World of Tanks....

[EmCeeMendez]

Viktor Drake, on 11 August 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

This is mostly because of the 12 vs 12 and smaller maps.

Lol wut?

You think the PPC/Gauss meta started with 12v12 and is due to Mech density on maps?

[matux]

I Didn't know running out into the open and being shot was a winning tactic... let me try that real quick...... Nope didnt work.

[Wintersdark]

matux, on 11 August 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

I Didn't know running out into the open and being shot was a winning tactic... let me try that real quick...... Nope didnt work.

... Really?

One person, running into the open, gets shot a lot and dies.

12 people, running into the open (or, ideally, flanking or some such to have the shortest "in the open" portion possible), either each get shot a little, with damage spread by twisting on the approach... Or one/two die charging. But people are going to die either way - few matches end 12-0 after all.

Remember, I said at the beginning: If they are outsniping you.

If they are, you've got close range power. Or you have a team of snipers too and you just suck, but that's another problem entirely.

Each of those mechs is firing once every four seconds. You're providing target saturation; it's very hard to focus fire when there's a swarm of mechs charging forwards. You push in close, limiting the bulk of their firepower while maximizing yours.

It takes balls, that's all. The slow refire time is irrelevant when they can duck into cover. But what happens is that in getting cover, your force is provided with an enemy force than can be rolled over peicemeal. The closer enemy mechs get crushed, and the cover that helped them helps you instead, making it more difficult for them to support each other.

You just keep pushing forward, rushing them, giving them no time to fall back into more cover. Badly damaged mechs move forward slower, to allow the less damaged ones to absorb more fire. This happens automatically, as the more badly damaged folks tend to be a little more hesitant while the undamaged folks, having tasted blood, push harder.

It absolutely does work. It's a perfectly valid and arguably the only tactic in a PUG where the other team is heavily sniper built.

The alternative is giving them the battle of their choice, where they have superior firepower, and that's a much worse proposition.

Edit: Of course, this is assuming PUG/small group matches where communication is limited at best.

Edited by Wintersdark, 11 August 2013 - 02:58 PM.

[Marmon Rzohr]

I can't say i have the same experience. Other tactics are viable, one just needs to boldly attempt them.
For example I had one match in my hunch 4P in Forest colony and it was a sniping fest so since i had only MLs and couldn't help i bided my time and saw an opprotunity to flank so i went round came up to the enemy mech furthest back and blew him up with a shot to the back. Moved to the next one. Got him as well. Then got to a stalker who i couldn't get in one shot so they found me out but i just kept distracting them and my team, bless them, wiped them out.

One of the most entertaining games ever. Sure stuff like this doesn't always work but is all the more rewarding. Plus it's fun.

Also the peek and shoot, play-it-safe gameplay is natural. As the game and it's player mature and practice new stuff other tactics will emerge. Be part of that and try to evolve the meta. Call out in chat. Ask for a wingman to flank or rush cap with etc.

It's fun

[Sprouticus]

It is NOT hard to pin the enemy in a battle line and flank in 12's.

Even on small maps
Even in PUG's

if you can get 2-3 guys to follow you on a flank, you will do well. Not 100% of the time, especially if you flank and end up hitting them in the middle and expose your back (I did that once over the weekend..opps!) to them. But it works.


I had one this weekend where me (in a BJ-1X) and 2 other mediums wer chasing some lightds away on frozen down in the low ground. We ended up flanking around behind the enemy because we could not get back up the hill (no JJ's). We came up right behind their two LRM support mechs (stalker and atlas). Those mech had pinned the rest of the team, but when we distracted them (and took them out eventiually) it gave our forces time to role in through the city and hit them hard.

We ended up einnign 12-3 or 12-5 or something. I died (2 mechs turned to help the missile boats), but the other flankers lived. And we won.

And in the end, THAT is what matters. Not whether I die (and I DO die a lot) but if my death served the team.

Edited by Sprouticus, 12 August 2013 - 09:41 AM.

[Voivode]

This is the function of every map featuring a wide open area in the middle (or nothing but wide open areas, I'm looking at you Alpine) so that is never a disadvantage to have sniper weapons. This isn't a weapon balancing issue, it's a mapmaking issue.

[Stardancer01]

If it is the same benefit blasting an opponent at (high risk) point blank or (low risk) from orbit, who would choose point blank?

There needs to be some incentive!
1 If the salvage was higher (surly if you are standing right next to the enemy you should be able to grave rob a lot more)
2 If the enemy base was easier to capture (notice no one is trying for the base capture anymore, so let’s just hide n snipe)
3 There is nothing to destroy in the opponents half of the table (what the point in risking you hide across no-mans-land if there is no power generator, ammo reload, repair bay, drop ship, command centre, sat uplink, anti star shipping laser, air base/missile silo/tank factory… to destroy or capture and gain an advantage for your team.)
4 Killing your opponent only gets you one match point (killing your opponent in his starting quarter should gain you more match points {eg. 1.3}, after all you are wreaking havoc with his supply lines)
5 Long range weapons need to be much longer on recharge (long range weapons sniper weapons need to charge to a lot higher energy and are calibrated/focused for long range, than a spray’n’pray short range brawling weapons.)

Edited by Stardancer01, 13 August 2013 - 01:24 AM.

[Sephlock]

Wintersdark, on 11 August 2013 - 12:56 PM, said:

Push, if the opposing team "out snipes" you, push. Don't just do the same. A 2PPC/Gauss mech is very dangerous, but as people have all moved to regular PPC's instead of the (now very hot) erppc's, those mechs fire very slowly and do very little damage up close.

Your new nickname is "Sentry One".

Foxfire, on 11 August 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

You can call for push, you can beg for push.. you can make a push.. but most often it is just you that makes the push and you get picked apart by the corner huggers on the other side.

This.

[Marmon Rzohr]

+1 Stardancer, Voivode

I have to admit that the thought never really crossed my mind. There are no solid objetives and matches are too short for some strategies to be attracive. And the maps offer few interesing routes. River city seems to be a bit of an exception as it kinda forces teams to fight for the "upper city" because whoever holds it has a big positional advantage. More maps could perhaps be made like this simply by reducing the number of cap points in conquest and repositioning them.
(3 caps only. One in each base and one in the middle in a position that can be defended e.i. lots of cover or high ground so you can't be sniped to death. That way snipers would still have a role, but it would also force teams to get stuck in)
Just a brainwave.

In the mean time, i still thing players need to attempt more interesting tactics and should work together more.

[Voivode]

One simple thing that would afford a huge improvement in matches....a true urban map. No long sight lines, no open areas. Just tight corridors. It would be an antisniper map in the way Alpine peaks is an antibrawler map. Run nothing but short range weapons and risk bein useless on Alpine. Run nothing but long range weapons and risk being useless in the dense urban map.