15 replies to this topic

[Unbound Inferno]

Just to clarify, what we need is the matchmaking system to have equal or close to (give or take 20-25 tons) team match-ups for weights. Not necessarily a weight limit, we just need the matchmaking system to equal out the team sizes.

Then ideally some way to match ELO skills better. Noth all high on one side and all low on another.

And teams. Team of 4 on your side? Team of 3 on theirs. That's better than a Team of 4 and a Team of 3 on one side.


That is what we need. Doesn't sound too hard, but I imagine it might take PGi a few months to do it.

[StaIker]

What you're really asking for, it seems, is a match maker that works more as a WIN button for you. Statistically it all evens out, you're as likely to be on the winning side of a stomping as on the losing. The only long term factor of importance is personal skill. If you're a good player you'll tip the balance for your side more often and win more games. If you're not, then you won't.

[Unbound Inferno]

StaIker, on 11 August 2013 - 07:01 PM, said:

What you're really asking for, it seems, is a match maker that works more as a WIN button for you. Statistically it all evens out, you're as likely to be on the winning side of a stomping as on the losing. The only long term factor of importance is personal skill. If you're a good player you'll tip the balance for your side more often and win more games. If you're not, then you won't.

If an equal footing on both sides looks like asking for a win button for you... I cant help you.

[StaIker]

If only everyone were perfectly equal, there would be no QQ. And what an utterly boring, repetative game that would be.

Edited by StaIker, 11 August 2013 - 09:07 PM.

[Unbound Inferno]

As if this PPC/Gauss/AC isn't? There is a reason I'm off in another game than actually playing this one.

[TOGSolid]

I've often wondered why the matchmaker doesn't assign an Elo to each weight class and then have a few set slots for each class in each match. It wouldn't end up perfect but at least the matches will have an even number of assaults, mediums, etc. on each team. It'd basically be a compromise between the old weight class matching and the current Elo system. Sure, the 9000000000 assault drivers might have longer weight times, but honestly? **** em.

Edited by TOGSolid, 11 August 2013 - 09:15 PM.

[StaIker]

Unbound Inferno, on 11 August 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

As if this PPC/Gauss/AC isn't? There is a reason I'm off in another game than actually playing this one.

So am I actually. I think PGI has made a complete hash of the gameplay here, even if they did do a good job on the visuals. But balance is one of those things that can never, ever be controlled to the degree you are asking for. Nor should it be. I'm happy to have some minimal balancing done based on a factor such as tonnage or battle value, but after that let the chips fall where they may.

Part of the problem I think is that people play a game like this with unrealistic expectations of combat results. They imagine that a matchup of relative strengths in the order of 45/55 means that the end result should also look like that, with the winning team only just hanging on. But that is not the normal way of things. A small imbalance like that grows and grows during the game as the strong side becomes relatively more powerful as they can kill the enemy faster and faster. A result where a 45/55 balance had 8 or 9 of the winning Mechs survive is expected. Do the math on this, you'll be surprised how quickly the advantage grows.

Games where both sides are reduced to scrap are uncommon and unpredictable in advance. They are not the normal result of otherwise "balanced" matchups.

[Roadbuster]

Unbound Inferno, on 11 August 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

Then ideally some way to match ELO skills better. Noth all high on one side and all low on another.

I think you should give up on equal teams. It's not going to happen, ever.
Why?

It's not a matter of ELO or weight. The pure stupidity of some players can't be fixed. Well, maybe not stupidity, but ignorance, egoism, simple mindedness or just the inability to learn from previous matches.

I've pretty much given up trying to get some coordination in the team. If you suggest to defend base or to scout before rushing out, you often just get a rude response or even insults.
Sometimes you have teams with players who know what they do and how to play in a team. Then you get a flock of sheep just waiting to get slaughtered, players in a blob who block eachother and shoot their teammates, who don't know what flanking is or people who think mechs without red target mark (ECM) don't exist.
That makes pugging a game of chance.

That's why the best ELO, matchmaking or weight matching won't result in balanced matches.

[Unbound Inferno]

StaIker, on 11 August 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

So am I actually. I think PGI has made a complete hash of the gameplay here, even if they did do a good job on the visuals. But balance is one of those things that can never, ever be controlled to the degree you are asking for. Nor should it be. I'm happy to have some minimal balancing done based on a factor such as tonnage or battle value, but after that let the chips fall where they may.

Part of the problem I think is that people play a game like this with unrealistic expectations of combat results. They imagine that a matchup of relative strengths in the order of 45/55 means that the end result should also look like that, with the winning team only just hanging on. But that is not the normal way of things. A small imbalance like that grows and grows during the game as the strong side becomes relatively more powerful as they can kill the enemy faster and faster. A result where a 45/55 balance had 8 or 9 of the winning Mechs survive is expected. Do the math on this, you'll be surprised how quickly the advantage grows.

Games where both sides are reduced to scrap are uncommon and unpredictable in advance. They are not the normal result of otherwise "balanced" matchups.

I highly doubt that.

We have ELO "skill" numbers - keep those "even"

IE 30k on one side, 30k on the other. Not 40k one and 20k another.

Weight? Total 825 tons one team, 250 tons another.

Team of 4 joined one team? look for a team of 3 for the other.

That is balanced, and then its just up to that ELO skill - if you are better, your number goes up. Then you play with tougher guys next time. Eventually you'll loose and your number stays about a certain level.

Seriously, it isn't that bad as you make it out to be.

[ztac]

Balancing by tonnage simply wont work .... Because if one team has some lights they can sneak in an extra assault or two compared to the other team.

It would be possible to have 1 light and assault for the cost of two mediums, By itself this is not too bad , but lights can be very annoying and give an advantage by them selves alone if the player knows what they are doing. And I would not want to be in those mediums when the LRM's come raining down on them.

The matchmaker would have to try to balance like for like, but you also have to account for weapon loadouts and modules. The 4x zoom makes a huge difference at range! And some mechs have some crazy weapon configurations. (like very low dps , but sustained fire, or 10 shots with an oversize weapon for their mech, or virtually instant sgutdown when they fire their weapons .. etc. etc.

Then pre-made teams can easily tip the balance in any game, The ELO system needs a makeover on a colossal scale.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Oh goody I can repost this post I made in a thread about BT Universe Drop Limits.

Heavy Assault BattleMech regiments consisted of mainly heavy-to-assault weight BattleMechs and a fourth company of artillery. The main assault force of the SLDF, most corps possessed at least a single Heavy Assault regiment. (In MWO terms this would be a company that is comprised of 1 recon lance and 2 lances of Heavy-Assault mechs. In simpler terms it would consist of 1-4 light mechs or 1-4 medium mechs, 4-5 heavy mechs, and 3-4 assault mechs.)

Battle BattleMech regiments were the core of most BattleMech brigades, consisting of medium-to-heavy weight 'Mechs.(Comprised of 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], 1 striker lance [4 medium mechs], and 1 heavy lance [1-2 medium mechs and 2-4 heavy mechs].

Striker BattleMech regiments were reconnaissance and breakthrough formations. Composed of light-to-medium weight 'Mechs, they also included a Recon company of Land Air 'Mechs, and usually had pairs of ASF assigned for their use. (1 recon lance [4 light mechs], striker lance [1-2 light mechs and 1-4 medium mechs], and a second striker lance [1-4 medium mechs and 1-2 heavy mechs].

Dragoon BattleMech regiments were composed of heavy-to-assault weight 'Mechs, tanks and hovercraft, their primary purpose being to fight against well-equipped enemies. (1 recon lance and 2 lances of Heavy-Assault mechs. In simpler terms it would consist of 1-4 light mechs or 1-4 medium mechs, 4-5 heavy mechs, and 3-4 assault mechs.)

Hussar BattleMech regiments were the most common of the Independent regiments, composed of medium-to-heavy 'Mechs, tanks and hovercraft.(Comprised of 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], 1 striker lance [4 medium mechs], and 1 heavy lance [1-2 medium mechs and 2-4 heavy mechs].

Light Horse BattleMech regiments were primarily reconnaissance units, often the first one dropped onto a world to discover the enemy's strengths. Emphasizing light-to-medium weight 'Mechs and vehicles, at least two companies used dedicated information-gathering units like Ostscouts. (1 recon lance [4 light mechs], striker lance [1-2 light mechs and 1-4 medium mechs], and a second striker lance [1-4 medium mechs and 1-2 heavy mechs].

Heavy Assault Company: 1 recon lance [1-4 light mechs or 1-4 medium mechs] and 2 lances of Heavy-Assault mechs [4-5 heavy mechs, and 3-4 assault mechs].
Drop Weight Limit: 640-920 tons

Battle Company: 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], 1 striker lance [4 medium mechs], and 1 heavy lance [1-2 medium mechs and 2-3 heavy mechs].
Drop Weight Limit: 450-640 tons

Striker Company: 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], striker lance [1-2 light mechs and 1-4 medium mechs], and a second striker lance [1-4 medium mechs and 1-2 heavy mechs].
Drop Weight Limit: 360-600 tons

Dragoon Company: 1 recon lance [1-4 light mechs or 1-4 medium mechs] and 2 lances of Heavy-Assault mechs [4-5 heavy mechs, and 3-4 assault mechs].
Drop Weight Limit: 640-920 tons

Hussar Company: 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], 1 striker lance [4 medium mechs], and 1 heavy lance [1-2 medium mechs and 2-4 heavy mechs].
Drop Weight Limit: 440-660 tons

Light Horse Company: 1 recon lance [4 light mechs], striker lance [1-2 light mechs and 1-4 medium mechs], and a second striker lance [1-4 medium mechs and 1-2 heavy mechs].
Drop Weight Limit: 360-600 tons

House Unit Limits

House Davion
Militias, Lancer, Light Cavalry, Cavalier, and Chasseur units adhere to the Striker drop limits.
Fusilier units adhere to the Dragoon drop limits.
Hussars are the same.
Davion Guards utilizes Heavy-Assault, Battle, and Striker drop limits.

House Steiner
Guards adhere to Battle or Heavy-Assault drop limits depending upon the unit.
Royal Guards adhere to the Heavy-Assault drop limits.
Jager, Cavalier, and Regulars use Striker drop limits.

House Kurita
Regulars and Sword of Light adhere to Heavy-Assault, Battle, or Striker drop limits depending upon the unit.
Genyosha and Otomo adhere to Heavy-Assault drop limits.
Izanagi Warriors adhere to Battle drop limits.
Amphigean Light Assault Group, Arkab Legion, Ghost, Regulars, Night Stalkers, and Legion of Vega adheres to Striker drop limits.
Ryuken adhere to Dragoon drop limits.
Hussars adhere to Hussar drop limits.

House Marik
Defenders of Andurien and Legionnaires Heavy-Assault, Battle, or Striker drop limits depending upon the unit.
Guards adhere to Striker drop limits.
Hussars adhere to Hussar drop limits.
Dragoons and Fusilier adhere to Dragoon drop limits.
Grenadiers adhere to Heavy-Assault drop limits.

This should be the ideal drop weights based upon what a unit is classified as. Lone wolves would have to adopt this structure for CW drops. Merc and House units are already classified accordingly. Some exceptions would apply to some Houses like Steiner that fields the most mechs that weigh between 60-75 tons.

[Salticidae]

Skill means nothing in this game, its all about the 11 idiots that get put on your team.

[Screech]

Zyne, on 12 August 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

Skill means nothing in this game, its all about the 11 idiots that get put on your team.

Birds of a feather...

[Joseph Mallan]

I see you have been busy upgrading your idea. Including House forces now. Very good write up.

to paraphrase HAL
'I can do that Dave.'

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 12 August 2013 - 12:08 PM.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Joseph Mallan, on 12 August 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

I see you have been busy upgrading your idea. Including House forces now. Very good write up.

to paraphrase HAL
'I can do that Dave.'

Yeah I took the time to research four of the five houses. House Liao is difficult since they don't follow any sane structure.

[Joseph Mallan]

Round this time frame its cause they don't have a lot of production any more & House Davion had spanked their military into near non existence.