55 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

gavilatius, on 12 August 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

Alright, this... this needs to stop.

Your constant addition of mechanics is Confusing PGI, stop it
---

One thing you must remember is how convoluted the system is. David and Paul went by the erroneous concept that the 30 capacity in tabletop is just "excess heat." Which can be true, but that isn't consistent and can't stack up. You could, for example in their interpretation, fire 60 heat and only generate 22 when you fire. That's not how it works. You don't magically sink 38 heat instantly and strut around like you're a gangster.

Problem is you generated 60 heat in 10 seconds, and spent that same 10 seconds also cooling that heat. So you're heating up, cooling down, walking, shooting, etc. at the same time. To keep it easy to understand we are simply shooting 6 PPCs from this 6 PPC stalker http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c384adcf97655a3 in tabletop with PPCs at 10 heat, and the tabletop system. So that 30 heat cap? That's a 30 heat cap, not excess heat. You simply put the leftover heat from the math in there.

Here we go. Conditions: Stalker is queued to fire 6 PPCs in a turn. Stalker is stationary. Ideal weather conditions, environment temperature in this instance does not affect the heat build up. Stalker is shooting at another herp-derp Stalker.

How PGI and some tabletop players think tabletop works.
Mech used. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c384adcf97655a3

Spoiler

Herp derp fire 6 PPCs at the same time. 1 hits CT, 1 hits left leg, 1 hits right arm, 1 hits the ground, 1 hits the sun, 1 hits yourself in the face (joke for missing).
Generate 60 heat instantly. Sink 38 heat instantly.

The Stalker supposedly alpha striked, scores 3 hits on the enemy in 3 different places, 3 misses. Fired 60 points of heat but only counts 22 of it since 60 - 19 DHS (38) = 22.

That's how PGI has essentially believes tabletop works. "It doesn't translate well into real time."

Well of course. You don't comprehend it.

How that same instance translates into real time:
Mech used. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c384adcf97655a3
Alpha strike warrior!

Spoiler

Herp derp fire 6 PPCs at the same time. All shots hit one place.
Generate 60 heat instantly. Sinks 38 heat over the course of 10 seconds.

The Stalker shut down immediately at 200% capacity. If there was ammo it would cook off and the mech would explode. There is none. It spends the next 9.9 seconds sitting there trying to cool off, and starts back up when it reaches 29 heat somewhere between 8 and 9 seconds. It then reaches 22 heat while powering up.

How Tabletop really works and translates into real time.
Mech used. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c384adcf97655a3
Stalker is queued to fire 6 PPCS. Alpha striking in tabletop is impossible. Time span of a turn is 10 seconds.

Spoiler

Stalker has 19 DHS. Therefore it cools at a rate of 38 points per 10 seconds. That's 3.8 points dissipation per second.

• At 0 seconds Stalker A fires 1 PPC at TrollStalker B. Generates 10 heat. Hits TrollStalkerB in the left leg.
  
  • At 0 seconds TrollStalker B returns fire with a tag laser while walking forward.
• At 1 second Stalker A has cooled 3.8 heat bringing it from 10 heat to to 6.2. Stalker A fires a second PPC + 10 heat to 16.2 and hits CT.
  
  • At 1 second TrollStalker B has fired its only weapon and continues to walk forward.
• At 2 seconds Stalker A has cooled 3.8 heat bringing it from 16.2 to 12.4. Stalker A chooses to wait.
  
  • At 2 seconds TrollStalker B begins turning 90 degrees left, requiring it to slow down to make the sharp turn.
• At 3 seconds Stalker A has cooled 3.8 heat bringing it to 8.6. It sees an opportunity, aims PPC for the head. Hit the TrollStalker's RT instead! + 10 heat for 18.6.
  
  • At 3 seconds TrollStalker B has slown down and the turn accelerates much easier.
• At 4 seconds Stalker A has cooled 3.8 heat bringing it to 14.8. Tries for the head again. Fires PPC (+10 heat for 24.8) and misses because
  
  • at 4 seconds the TrollStalker B started a troll dance twist!
• At 5 seconds Stalker A has cooled 3.8 heat bringing it to 21. Cannot fire.
  
  • At 5 seconds TrollStalker B has completed the turn and begins to accelerate forward.
• At 6 seconds Stalker A has cooled 3.8 heat bringing it to 17.2. It's safe to fire. Fires (17.2 + 10 = 27.2) heat. Misses due to high heat.
  
  • At 6 seconds TrollStalker B continues forward.
• At 7 seconds Stalker A has cooled 3.8 heat bringing it to 23.4. Not safe to fire.
  
  • At 7 seconds TrollStalker B has begun decelerating and turning left.
• At 8 seconds Stalker A has cooled 3.8 heat bringing it to 19.6. Waits to avoid accuracy penalty.
  
  • At 8 seconds TrollStalker B has completed its 90 degree turn to the left and begins to accelerate.
• At 9 seconds Stalker A has cooled 3.8 heat bringing it to 15.8. Fires PPC (15.8 + 10 = 25.8). Missed! The pilot's eyes are blurry from the heat.
  
  • At 9 seconds TrollStalker B has accelerated. The pilot makes certain to look over his shoulder to give Stalker A the bird.
• At 10 seconds Stalker A has cooled 3.8 heat bringing it down to 22 heat not sunken. The pilot bites his lip in frustration. "One day there will be some moron that misinterprets these rules, and when there is... I'll alpha strike the living crap out of you!"
  
  • At 10 seconds TrollStalker B has torso twisted the other way, limitedly wagging its backside as if mooning the 6 PPC Stalker pilot. "Won't happen. No one is stupid enough to misinterpret these rules!"

The Stalker fired 6 PPCs, one at a time. Scores hits on the following locations: Left leg, CT, RT. Missed 3 times. Fired 60 points of heat over 10 seconds, and over the same 10 seconds has sunken 38 heat, which means at the end of 10 seconds there is 22 heat that the pilot was unable to sink during the fight.

In real time, it would translate identically to how I just demonstrated it, if we truly used how tabletop's 10 second system really worked. Of course in real time with MWO's firing rates, he probably would have shot just one more PPC in that fight in order to get in that last extra shot and shut down.

But.. Sadly we had people that just didn't understand how it worked. And so we have heat capacities that work like this.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...c384adcf97655a3
That stalker in MWO as it is now. 19 DHS.
Capacity: Base 30 + 10*2 Engine DHS + 9*1.4 Chassis DHS = 62.6 + Master level skills Heat Containment 20% MOAR CAPACITIES BECAUSE WE NEEDZ TA ALPHA STRIKEZ! = 75.12 til shutdown. Alpha strike all the weapons!
Cooling rate: 32.6 per 10 seconds / 10 = 3.26/second + Master level skills Cool Run 15% faster cooling = 3.749/sec. ZOMG it cools ze fastest evah!

In comparison how it would have worked if done right with the same pilot skills. Again it's 19 DHS.
Capacity: 30. + Master skill unlocks 20% = 36. 36 heat and you shut down after master skills.
Cooling rate: 19*2 DHS = 38 cooling per 10 seconds / 10 = 3.8/sec. + Master skill unlocks 15% = 4.37/Sec.

Yes, it cools faster, but even with PPCs at 8 heat, you'd be able to fire 5 and shut down. With PPCs at 10 heat, you'd be able to fire 4 and shut down for several seconds. Even then you have to wait to safely fire them again. A total of... 40 heat - 4.37/sec (3 seconds to start back up) and at 9 seconds you'd be at 0.67 heat.

4 PPCs once every 9 seconds? Doesn't sound that bad to me. Yep.

Edit: Forgot to highlight capacity in the done right example. Made real TT second by second demonstration easier to read with indentations.

Edit 2: Finally figured out what appears to be PGI's belief for how tabletop would work in a static cooling rate, and what they've done and this concept seems to be supported by PGI's original mechwarrior 5 video. Read about it here.

Edited by Koniving, 15 August 2013 - 11:31 AM.

[Koniving]

As a result of this, PGI has had to look into bandages because they can't seem to understand how badly they screwed up. The sad thing is how simple the fix is. Heatsinks raise threshold by 0. Bam. Done. Save, upload to test, give it a try, realize how awesome it is, do minor rebalancing as required by adjusting heat levels and/or firing rates of weapons.

For that matter why do so many weapons fire at exactly 4 seconds apart? Medium laser, AC/20, PPC, ER PPC, Gauss Rifle, all 4 seconds apart. But the large laser? 4.25 seconds before you can fire that again counting beam time.

[Twisted Power]

MrZakalwe, on 13 August 2013 - 06:36 AM, said:

They have said they have something in the pipeline to make firing PPCs and Gauss together not optimal.

I hope not. That would be the dumbest thing ever.

[AC]

I agree, they already broke enough stock configs with the Ghost Heat they implemented.

[Jestun]

So true.

Instead they make up issues, like people not understanding which way they are walking, and then spend their time and resources "fixing" them by adding a 3rd person mode which doesn't even show the legs of the mechs.

[Randalf Yorgen]

well, once this battlemech gets here Heat and Weapon Stacking will never be an issue again

http://users.anet.co...bm-thawk7y.html


GO GO Gauss-Boat Rangers (hum the power rangers theam to this)

[tigerija]

Best way to describe this game: Micheal Bay's Transformers 2

Confushing as hell.

[Ngamok]

AC, on 13 August 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

And why shouldn't PPC and Gauss be used together? It is used together on legitimate TRO builds. PGI is breaking these builds with their complex rules. Hunchie 4P comes to mind, so does the Awesome 8Q.

They are not broken. No mechwarrior in the books went around like they were playing AlphaStrike Online like we have here.

Dawnstealer, on 13 August 2013 - 07:01 AM, said:

I've always thought this was a better idea than limiting the type, although it makes sense to have both as the plug-and-play nature of the Clan omnimechs is a big perk of those builds. Having weapon slots that limited both type and size would be perfect.

You could always put a smaller weapon in a designated slot, but a larger one would be impossible.

Yes, that is what they should do. But what happens next? AssaultWarrior Online because if people can't put their favorite weapons in any mech, you know they will go with what they can.

[Sybreed]

gavilatius, on 12 August 2013 - 09:35 PM, said:

Alright, this... this needs to stop.

there are so many things wrong with this game it's not even funny; Ghost heat, heat measurements, icons that go over seismic.

This ghost heat thing, this is a bit ridiculous; basically you have a weapons limit that prevents players from simplifying their builds. "So I can have 6 Medium lasers and only 2 Large lasers?
Hahaha, no."

I used to use PPCs way back since December of 2012, I loved them even with their (back then) high heat, PGI then brought the heat down because they weren't "used enough". Well Duh PPCs are "Specialist weapons". then they increased their coolddown then they added the weapon limits then they upped their heat a bit.

I'm sorry, you'll have to quote where it's said you can't use more than 6 medium lasers and 2 large lasers now. Cause I'm still playing builds that use more than said numbers and I'm doing fine.

I think you're either trolling.... or suffering from a severe reading comprehension problem.

Edited by Sybreed, 13 August 2013 - 05:27 PM.

[SuomiWarder]

I had not thought if this until now, but I wonder if the heat penalty for multiples of the same type of weapon show up in the mechlab 0 to 2 bar. Does the background map add the extra heat for an alpha of 5 PPCs or just use the base line for 5 PPCs?

[CrashieJ]

Ngamok, on 13 August 2013 - 06:07 AM, said:

IT IS NOT HARD TO FIND THE INFORMATION

I've also been playing videogames since 1994 across a wide array of genres, and frankly I've actually gotten more information from an SNES game manual then some of these other games recently played. If I have to literally do some gravedigging to find out certain mechanics, something is very VERY VERY wrong.

time is always of the essence

Sybreed, on 13 August 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

I think you're either trolling.... or suffering from a severe reading comprehension problem.

sorry, I meant "without a heat penalty". If I were trolling, Poster #2 would have called me out on it, and if it were a Comprehension problem I wouldn't be working on my Masters of Software Engineering.

zolop, on 13 August 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

words

the thing is, this game could streamline much easier being complex and engaging without being so "headscratching". I shouldn't have to pull up "Smurfy's Mechlab" every time I get a new mech.

I remember playing Isometric games and I still do, Syndicate being pretty good along with Fallout. they were Complex games that were engaging and testing but they were easily explainable and you can run the numbers in your head... not complicated.

Even when Virtual Battlespace (VBS) came out, we were able to get on it instantly but some scenarios required a bit of tinkering, but the solution was RIGHT THERE

it brings me back to a quote somebody said a long time ago.

[color=#2B2B2B] simple to pick up, but hard to master[/color]

Most of the older MW/BT games were difficult, but they were easy to comprehend, simplified and clarified. This game however, seems to the exact opposite for some of us.

[Victor Morson]

Johnny Reb, on 12 August 2013 - 11:57 PM, said:

How, so? Was talking about terrible streaks.

Try running twin 6s and some lasers. It's an outstanding ultra-speed Centurion.

[Lightfoot]

MrZakalwe, on 12 August 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

Most pf these rules are ok and would be great if they were properly explained in the client; the PPC ghost heat change was great and really cut down on the 40-60 pt alphas that were the fad back then.

I still have a very good win rate and KD with a four PPC Stalker but my 5 PPC Stalker is history (and rightly so) and I now need to fire in two twenty damage volleys rather than a fifty damage killshot.

I'm enjoying the game a lot more since these changes.

I think when your Mech explodes from firing too many weapons at once you stop doing it.

I think they are over-doing the Heat-Scale de-syncing, though. The OP is right about "ghost heat" mechanics being very confusing. Nerfing a Gauss and 2xPPCs was really weird since it's not that great a build. It's just a very obvious one so you see it alot. Seeing it used so often caused near hysteria on the forums for all the newbies though, so, de-synced. Pointless though, it's only moderately good.

Edited by Lightfoot, 14 August 2013 - 10:41 AM.

[Sybreed]

gavilatius, on 14 August 2013 - 04:51 AM, said:

sorry, I meant "without a heat penalty". If I were trolling, Poster #2 would have called me out on it, and if it were a Comprehension problem I wouldn't be working on my Masters of Software Engineering.

Well I don't remember the rule that says that all second posters have the obligation to detect trolls, but you just proved that you have concerning reading comprehension problems and anyone can enter software engineering masters nowadays.

You CAN use 4 large lasers without heat penalties.

What you CAN'T DO is fire all of them at the same time.

There is a pretty freaking big difference between the 2.

If you can't use more than 2 large lasers without firing all of them at the same time, the problem is you.

[80sGlamRockSensation David Bowie]

Lyoto Machida, on 12 August 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

The ghost heat doesnt just affect PPCs.

I'm sure everyone was complaining about the 6 LL Stalkers or the 4 LL K2s out there...

It's a dumb and unnecessary fix to a problem. They should have just raised heat back to where it was in Closed Beta and add actual heat penalties for running hot (ammo explosions, movement reduction, etc).

What?! You mean, things that already existed in the TT rules and were successfully implemented in past MechWarrior games?!


Nah, fk that! Lets just keep making up more bs rules that don't to anything but overcomplicate issues and **** around the bush! New players love to learn crap like that!

[Kunae]

mwhighlander, on 14 August 2013 - 06:06 PM, said:

Nah, fk that! Lets just keep making up more bs rules that don't to anything but overcomplicate issues and **** around the bush! New players love to learn crap like that!

Hellz yeah!