55 replies to this topic

[Zarlaren]

SamsungNinja, on 13 August 2013 - 05:58 AM, said:

Now this could be an alternate solution to the problem. It would also breathe some life into the role viability of XL engines.

XL engines is still going to be the achilles heel if a side torso is gone cause it needs all torso's to live.

[MrZakalwe]

Zarla, on 13 August 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

I do agree armor needs to be tougher but I think what needs to be tougher is internal structure once armor is gone all it takes is 1 shot and your dead it needs to be alot tougher overall. Also I think there should be a health on the engine itself not just center torso health but I would like to see internal structure not be so squishy once armor fails.

Was debating this with somebody on Gameplay Balance and I argued myself out of this one; high armour/low internals make mechs much softer from the rear (as everybody frontloads armour) and this would actually be a nerf to lights etc and make the game a little less tactical than it already is.

[Corvus Antaka]

id like to see

standard engine, bonus 50% hitpoints to mechs internals.

XL engine, current values.

[SamsungNinja]

MrZakalwe, on 13 August 2013 - 06:12 AM, said:

Was debating this with somebody on Gameplay Balance and I argued myself out of this one; high armour/low internals make mechs much softer from the rear (as everybody frontloads armour) and this would actually be a nerf to lights etc and make the game a little less tactical than it already is.

Touché, didn't think of it in terms of it nerfing lights. We need to stay squishy from the rear (lol *cough*That'sWhatSheSaid*cough*),

@DaZur: No, sorry, but "lol ur doin it wrong" isn't the answer. This isn't subjective, it's objective. It takes only moderately more time to drill a CT vs. taking off a leg or an arm. That statement has nothing to do with pilot skill, "doin' it wrong," or other variables. The argument I raise is that the game is most fun when you are dismantling an enemy vs. coring them. As a result, my suggestion is to raise the values of CT armor for all mech types across the board to promote more dismemberment.

It has nothing to do with "doin' it right."

Edited by SamsungNinja, 13 August 2013 - 02:18 PM.

[Bhael Fire]

SamsungNinja, on 13 August 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

I don't get the same sense of morbid satisfaction from coring a Jenner

I do.

Especially when they round a corner right into my sights, take a blast of HEAP and then face plant like a rag doll. So much fun.

That said, I also like to play with my food. I'm not above taking a leg then watch them squirm as I roll right up to their face and then take their head off.

[DONTOR]

Tombstoner, on 13 August 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

Lights 0
mediums +50%
heavy +100%
assault +150%

This is not how i would really adjust armor. That would take studying the relationship between mech size and speed to see how easy/hard it is to hit and atlas vs. a spider. Then adjust protection (armor) values to approximate evasion (hard to hit).

Justification is the internal structure is designed for load bearing in the case of the atlas and speed/ long legs for lighter mechs. design needs lead to better armor coverage: speed vs. armor trade off.

Armor needs to be increased over all mechs because fire rates where increased 250% but armor was only 200%. but this is a subjective point influenced buy how long mechs should live. its a qualitative measurement not quantitative.

Atlas has much higher internal Hp than all other mechs for the reason that it is big, and is an easy target. 200% extra armor would be ridiculous.

[Febrosian R Gillingham]

SamsungNinja, on 13 August 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

@DaZur: No, sorry, but "lol ur doin it wrong" isn't the answer. This isn't subjective, it's objective. It takes only moderately more time to drill a CT vs. taking off a leg or an arm. That statement has nothing to do with pilot skill, "doin' it wrong," or other variables. The argument I raise is that the game is most fun when you are dismantling an enemy vs. coring them. As a result, my suggestion is to raise the values of CT armor for all mech types across the board to promote more dismemberment.

It has nothing to do with "doin' it right."

Of course it does.

If you watch new or bad players playing, they stay facing their target the entire time, and get cored out easily with very little damage spread to other sections. So when you fight them, obviously the best plan is to just shoot for their CT. Better players will torso twist all the time, and typically not die until side torsos and arms are destroyed or at least heavily damaged. You won't be able to get easy CT shots on them, and if you wait for a CT shot every time your damage output is significantly less, not to mention the fact that you are open to shots from the rest of the enemy team.

Also the CT has about 50% more armor than a side torso or leg, and double an arm. If you only shoot for CT while your opponent focuses on disabling weapons, you'll usually end up stripped and your opponent will still have full damage potential. Combined with torso twisting to mitigate damage, mechs can easily live long enough so that its almost mandatory that you try to strip weapons from them. Keep in mind most mechs have one or two big weapons with some backups, or have a large number of weapons in one area, so you can easily cripple a mech's fighting ability.

Watch any competitive matches that are streamed, especially ones where you can hear the team's comms. Its rare to see someone get JUST cored in their CT with no other damage unless they really screw up. Also you'll hear frequent calls to take out specific weapons on mechs. Right torsos on Atlai, Highlanders, Cataphracts, and Hunchbacks, left torsos and legs on Centurions, ears on a Catapult, either torso on a Stalker, etc.

Mechs don't need any more CT armor, players just need to learn to protect their CT with good torso twisting. Once you and your opponents start doing this, then stripping weapons becomes very important.

[DaZur]

SamsungNinja, on 13 August 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

Touché, didn't think of it in terms of it nerfing lights. We need to stay squishy from the rear (lol *cough*That'sWhatSheSaid*cough*),

@DaZur: No, sorry, but "lol ur doin it wrong" isn't the answer. This isn't subjective, it's objective. It takes only moderately more time to drill a CT vs. taking off a leg or an arm. That statement has nothing to do with pilot skill, "doin' it wrong," or other variables. The argument I raise is that the game is most fun when you are dismantling an enemy vs. coring them. As a result, my suggestion is to raise the values of CT armor for all mech types across the board to promote more dismemberment.

It has nothing to do with "doin' it right."

I'm sorry... you're advocating an arbitrary increase in CT armor for no other reason than the fact that you fail to appreciate the inherent limitation of your mech, the outright idiocy of stepping inside brawl range with a dual AC/20 mech and potentially failing to adequately apply the defensive maneuvering necessary to mitigate point damage...

If your head hurts from banging it into a wall... do you stop banging your head or you request a softer wall?

Fact is based on your premise you are constantly being cored instantly regardless of what you do and how much armor you place in the CT... I'm sorry but the common denominator is "you" and in particular how you pilot your mech.

[Khobai]

Rather than just increasing CT armor id like to see a damage reduction system.

For example...
Each leg and arm give 25% damage reduction to their respective side torso as long as theyre intact. So thatd be a total of 50% DR if the arm and leg are both intact.

Each side torso gives 25% damage reduction to the center torso as long as theyre intact. Again thats 50% DR as long as both side torsos are intact.

That does largely the same thing as increasing armor but gives more incentive to shooting off other body parts.

Edited by Khobai, 13 August 2013 - 08:17 PM.

[SamsungNinja]

DaZur, on 13 August 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

I'm sorry... you're advocating an arbitrary increase in CT armor for no other reason than the fact that you fail to appreciate the inherent limitation of your mech, the outright idiocy of stepping inside brawl range with a dual AC/20 mech and potentially failing to adequately apply the defensive maneuvering necessary to mitigate point damage...

If your head hurts from banging it into a wall... do you stop banging your head or you request a softer wall?

Fact is based on your premise you are constantly being cored instantly regardless of what you do and how much armor you place in the CT... I'm sorry but the common denominator is "you" and in particular how you pilot your mech.

But the same complaint I have exists in footage I see of good players in meta matches. Even watching the NGNG stream tonight, Impy was getting cored out way faster than he was being dismembered. So rather than trying to tell me I must be doing something wrong, look at what I'm saying.

CT armor is a small % more than side torso and arms. These values are still tabletop values, and that's the problem. They were balanced for a tabletop, but when I can choose to aim at the CT, then having only a 10-20% increase in CT armor over the L/RT isn't really a good design.

Answer? CT armor for all mechs needs a buff. Coring a mech should be harder than dismantling it. My stalker, for example, has 86 CT armor and 64 on the side torsos, and 70+ on the legs. he difference from leg to side to center isn't much, and it isn't for any mech, even an atlas.

Hence, CT could use a buff. CTs just aren't durable enough when you consider the armament. Alternatively, they could obfuscate armor values more than a 1:1 damage ratio, where CT takes 60% damage, L/RT take 80%, and extremities take full damage. Mechs should die more often to not having legs than getting their centers punched out like a Reese's cup.

[DaZur]

SamsungNinja, on 13 August 2013 - 08:38 PM, said:

Statistically your torso comprises up to 40% of your center mass... Of course your torso is going to get hit more often than your extremities. I don't care how much more armor you stick in it, that fact does not change...

Fine... PGI allows an unrestricted armor allocation. End result is you're not remedying anything... you're just trading one deficit for another.

It all sounds great... torso are built like brick outhouses... Sadly instead of distributed damage, mechs would have to resort to zombie builds because sneezing in the wrong direction will result in extremities and components being blown off with impunity.

It's an arbitrary fix for a fundamental battlemech combat deficit... The torso is the easiest part of a mech to hit. Making the torso nigh impenetrable simply makes the remaining parts overtly fragile symptomatically... Obfuscating armor values only compounds the problem.

Mech don't die to CT cores because they are too weakly armored... they die to CT cores because it's the easiest / biggest part of the target.

Edited by DaZur, 13 August 2013 - 09:21 PM.

[SamsungNinja]

DaZur, on 13 August 2013 - 09:21 PM, said:

Statistically your torso comprises up to 40% of your center mass... Of course your torso is going to get hit more often than your extremities. I don't care how much more armor you stick in it, that fact does not change...

Fine... PGI allows an unrestricted armor allocation. End result is you're not remedying anything... you're just trading one deficit for another.

It all sounds great... torso are built like brick outhouses... Sadly instead of distributed damage, mechs would have to resort to zombie builds because sneezing in the wrong direction will result in extremities and components being blown off with impunity.

It's an arbitrary fix for a fundamental battlemech combat deficit... The torso is the easiest part of a mech to hit. Making the torso nigh impenetrable simply makes the remaining parts overtly fragile symptomatically... Obfuscating armor values only compounds the problem.

Mech don't die to CT cores because they are too weakly armored... they die to CT cores because it's the easiest / biggest part of the target.

Really? I would have never known, I thought the Kintorso was made entirely out of cockpit!

You're still failing to see the point. Or maybe it's conscious refusal. You simultaneously acknowledge the problem and then state it as a matter of being "the way it is."

Because it's the easiest thing to hit, it needs a static increase across all mechs. The problem stems from porting TT to VG, and they haven't done much to address this. An armor buff or, better, A damage reduction, to CT armor is needed to promote the funnest parts of gameplay and make the game as tactical as it has the potential to be.

It's not about me an my Stalker/Jager/Hunchback/Spider, it's about the quality of gameplay and effecting player psychology so that the biggest thing isn't the only thing you shoot for. Just look at Dead Space. They changed the typical shooter mechanic from headshots to dismemberment by making your weapons much less effective against an enemy's torso, and making necromorphs able to live without a head. The two biggest targest in shooters were now resilient to fire.

If you were to apply the same methodology here, making the CT much more difficult to penetrate, the game would be more about dismantling. They've tried to promote this gameplay with incentives (salvage, component destruction, etc.), but as long as the CT remains as vulnerable as it is, those incentives will not go far enough.

Edit: I'm not the one asking to shift armor. I'm asking that PGI consider a dramatic, static buff to the CT for all mechs. If the CT was buffed by 30-50%, people would be more likely to go after weapons first.

Edited by SamsungNinja, 13 August 2013 - 10:08 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Bhael Fire, on 13 August 2013 - 02:49 PM, said:

I do.

Especially when they round a corner right into my sights, take a blast of HEAP and then face plant like a rag doll. So much fun.

That said, I also like to play with my food. I'm not above taking a leg then watch them squirm as I roll right up to their face and then take their head off.

You are a kindred soul Bhael.

Sorry Samsung we already have double the armor. People aim Center Mass cause it increases the chance of hitting the target at all.

We don't need to coddle players. Raise armor, lower alpha, Remove Alpha all together. I don't want to see it.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 13 August 2013 - 10:44 PM.

[MrZakalwe]

It's not about coddling players it's about changing how the game is played.

current situation:
Aim for the center torso or you are doing it wrong unless aiming at light mechs where the legs might be the right answer.

Suggested situation:
Decide if crippling the enemy mech is a better choice than coring as both are valid.

[SamsungNinja]

MrZakalwe, on 13 August 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

It's not about coddling players it's about changing how the game is played.

current situation:
Aim for the center torso or you are doing it wrong unless aiming at light mechs where the legs might be the right answer.

Suggested situation:
Decide if crippling the enemy mech is a better choice than coring as both are valid.

This.

[Typhoon Storm 2142]

MrZakalwe, on 13 August 2013 - 11:48 PM, said:

It's not about coddling players it's about changing how the game is played.

current situation:
Aim for the center torso or you are doing it wrong unless aiming at light mechs where the legs might be the right answer.

Suggested situation:
Decide if crippling the enemy mech is a better choice than coring as both are valid.

But I like to disarm my targets, so I shoot arms, RT and LT first. If you have to cry alot because your CT gets blasted in seconds, then you're a bad pilot, thats all. No more CT armor needed in this game. They already doubled all armor on all 'Mechs compared to older MW titles.

[Febrosian R Gillingham]

I suggest you take a look at my previous post in this thread regarding torso twisting, and how good use of it promotes targeting weapons locations (situationally) rather than always just waiting for clear shots on the CT.

If you are getting cored out in a Stalker before your other sections, you definitely are not playing the mech to anywhere near its potential. It has an incredibly slim CT hitbox that is only really visible when directly facing you, making it one of the hardest mechs to core out when played decently. In almost every competitive match I've played involving Stalkers, they are purposely stripped down and left as a stick. This is all due to the fact that mech hitboxes+player skill make it relatively hard to score reliable hits on the CT, and relatively easy to strip weapons off of the exposed side torsos.

Edited by Febrosian R Gillingham, 14 August 2013 - 01:38 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

I wouldn't say that the CT need more armor.
I really think the full armor and hitbox mechanik is awesome - and really need a new polish that it looks like fitting in the 21st century and not in the 80's.

Typhoon Storm 2142, on 14 August 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

They already doubled all armor on all 'Mechs compared to older MW titles.

thank you - it is a little bit cold in the bureau - but now my blood is boiling.
I really hope somedays people will stop posting this stupid sentense - (of it is truth - but it is still misrepresentation of facts)

[MrZakalwe]

Typhoon Storm 2142, on 14 August 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

But I like to disarm my targets, so I shoot arms, RT and LT first. If you have to cry alot because your CT gets blasted in seconds, then you're a bad pilot, thats all. No more CT armor needed in this game. They already doubled all armor on all 'Mechs compared to older MW titles.

Assumptions, my friend, you should make less of them.

I tend to pilot a 4 PPC Stalker and if you want to fire at me you need to face me so i will put 4 PPC shots into your center torso. I will willingly lose DPS to wait for another shot on your CT because unless you choose to not fire back you have to show it to me- the possible outcomes of this are
a ) you get cored.
or
b ) you dont fire back.

I'm happy with either tbh as while you are firing at my arm I'm coring you and with missile bay doors and the lack of rear armour to allocate points to my arm is nearly as tough as your CT.

I'll trade an arm for a CT happily any day.

Edited by MrZakalwe, 14 August 2013 - 04:21 AM.

[Typhoon Storm 2142]

MrZakalwe, on 14 August 2013 - 04:20 AM, said:

Assumptions, my friend, you should make less of them.

I tend to pilot a 4 PPC Stalker and if you want to fire at me you need to face me so i will put 4 PPC shots into your center torso. I will willingly lose DPS to wait for another shot on your CT because unless you choose to not fire back you have to show it to me- the possible outcomes of this are
a ) you get cored.
or
b ) you dont fire back.

I'm happy with either tbh as while you are firing at my arm I'm coring you and with missile bay doors and the lack of rear armour to allocate points to my arm is nearly as tough as your CT.

I'll trade an arm for a CT happily any day.

Assumptions? You think I'll shoot a Stalkers arms first? If I see a Centurion coming, I'll waste his right arm, then destroy his reactor. Stalkers are different. I like to headshot them, because they have a slooow torso movement. It depends on the 'Mech, but I mostly go for their biggest weapon first. Don't assume that you beat me that easily, tough guy. I'm a hell of a shot. You will just overheat with your noob PPC build before doing any serious damage. Sure, if you have teammates covering you, it's easy to Pilot a Stalker. So easy, that any noob can do it.