195 replies to this topic

[Belorion]

Interesting idea, although I disagree on a fundamental level with aiming nerfs having a slight delay and reticule lock on wouldn't be the end of the world except...

Scouts could still spot for pop-tarts. Granted this improves the roll of the scout and makes the game a tad more dynamic, but the underlying issue would still be there.

I am assuming when they say de-sync they mean change one of the weapons travel speed.

[FatBabyThompkins]

Bilbo, on 13 August 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

The de-sync would have to be on the front end, at trigger pull, to do anything meaningful. Otherwise, like you said, it would do absolutely nothing as pilots will just wait the extra beat to fire.

Having a charge system may be easily macro'd out. Or simply, charge-hold left mouse button. Release LMB, tap RMB. Whalla, 2 PPC and Guass fired at same time and at the time you want it. Although I would like to see a charge system (I think that's kind of a cool idea, even though it doesn't really change much, just walk around holding your left mouse button), you would still need to enforce desync at the server to stop that behavior.

Edit: Ohhh. What if they made it the longer you hold the trigger, your heat started to build. You're channeling energy to the weapon continuously, leaving the relays open longer than you should. Your heat starts to creep. That would be an interesting way to stop people from just holding the trigger waiting for an opportune shot.

Edited by FatBabyThompkins, 13 August 2013 - 11:49 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Taemien, on 13 August 2013 - 10:31 AM, said:

Alpha strike is not being removed from the game. You can still load up all weapons into a single firing group, get up in someone's face and ruin their day. Its supposed to be a last ditch effort to destroy an opponent.

Says Who? I have always laughed at the "Last ditch" Idea from some of you. I have always built to fire everything. Why ? Cause I want you dead 3 minutes ago!!! I want to slice you up, portion you out, and move on to the next slab of meat. Being able to continually do that in a match has been my happy place.

[Bilbo]

FatBabyThompkins, on 13 August 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

Having a charge system may be easily macro'd out. Or simply, charge-hold left mouse button. Release LMB, tap RMB. Whalla, 2 PPC and Guass fired at same time and at the time you want it. Although I would like to see a charge system (I think that's kind of a cool idea, even though it doesn't really change much, just walk around holding your left mouse button), you would still need to enforce desync at the server to stop that behavior.

Which is fine at range, but once inside brawling range the advantage is lost. The problem, currently, is that the sniping weapons are as effective, if not more effective, than brawly weapons at brawling ranges. If you can time your torso twist to take advantage of the macro at brawling range, more power to you.

[BlackWidow]

Trauglodyte, on 13 August 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Adding heat penalties would help but it wouldn't solve everything. I've been pushing for a three fold system of 1) dividing the heat bar into three sections (green, yellow, and red), 2) having the yellow and red sections remove all efficiencies x2 per level, and adding a movement+heat penalty that would grow gradually to the point of putting you at 50-75% of the JJ reticle impact. If that doesn't disuade you from alpha striking every chance you get or building exceptionally hot mechs, I don't know what would.

Sorry, but I F'ing LOVE that beautifully elegant solution. Einstein would be proud.

[DaZur]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 August 2013 - 11:44 AM, said:

Says Who? I have always laughed at the "Last ditch" Idea from some of you. I have always built to fire everything. Why ? Cause I want you dead 3 minutes ago!!! I want to slice you up, portion you out, and move on to the next slab of meat. Being able to continually do that in a match has been my happy place.

In fairness connically and lore / novel wise (Yeah, I hate to resort to that too) a full weapons fire resulted in a missive heat spike that typically either shut the offender down or catalyzed various system failures. That's not to say a high-alpha build was impossible / improbable... they however came with their own subset of issues that partially mitigated their viability.

[BlackWidow]

Waking One, on 13 August 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

waah waaah waaah

first of all, "de-sync their firing" could mean just about anything

second, you're a worse whiner than the people who want stuff nerfed, ridiculous

Again, slug. Not whining. Frustrated and seeking solutions and or intelligent discussion on the matter. Most people in here have been able to provide either or both. You sir, provide nothing. Go troll somewhere else.

[Dimento Graven]

DaZur, on 13 August 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

I agree with you...

​And the heat build up from an alpha strike was the result of a full weapons launch, not just just a select few... thus, the group mechanic contributes to the ability to mitigate the inherent heat issues by dropping non-desirous weapons from the group.

While I agree in premise it brings the two-headed monster of chance with it... something that largely is frowned upon in a real time shooter. How exactly do you invoke punitive repercussions as list in your table if not through a randomized chance side-effect?

As far as the everything else but the ammo explosions and the additional chances for shutdown pre-100% heat, those could be activated at firmly set heat levels, as has been done for the past 30 years.

Ammo explosions would have to be at heat percentage X, start count down timer for Y number of seconds, Activate Bitching Betty Ammo Explosion Alert. If heat drops below percentage X before the timer expires, timer resets. If heat doesn't then the computer rolls its random number generator and checks, the counter resets, rinse and repeat.

As far as the extra chances of shutting down before 100%, I'd see those replaced with HUD dimming to invisibility, and random movements of the targeting reticule, at specific heat percentages.

And yes, I fully expect to shoot, heat shoots up, all applicable heat affects activate, I then NOT shoot and as I cool naturally (no changes necessary to the current cooling processes already in place) to below those activation levels, those affects turn off and I return to normal functionality.

[FatBabyThompkins]

Bilbo, on 13 August 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Which is fine at range, but once inside brawling range the advantage is lost. The problem, currently, is that the sniping weapons are as effective, if not more effective, than brawly weapons at brawling ranges. If you can time your torso twist to take advantage of the macro at brawling range, more power to you.

Ergo why I said there would need to be server enforced desync. So, charge your PPC fire it. Must wait .5 seconds to fire next or Gauss. You're slowing the rate of fire and possibly shooting on different parts of the mech (unlikely, but there are chances after all). I agree that a minimum range penalty should be in effect to truly balance long range weapons vs brawling weapons.

[TOGSolid]

Trauglodyte, on 13 August 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:

Adding heat penalties would help but it wouldn't solve everything. I've been pushing for a three fold system of 1) dividing the heat bar into three sections (green, yellow, and red), 2) having the yellow and red sections remove all efficiencies x2 per level, and adding a movement+heat penalty that would grow gradually to the point of putting you at 50-75% of the JJ reticle impact. If that doesn't disuade you from alpha striking every chance you get or building exceptionally hot mechs, I don't know what would.

******* love it.

NinetyProof, on 13 August 2013 - 11:16 AM, said:

He was right ... just wait and see what they do before passing judgement. This community is sooooo knee jerk that it's forced PGI to dis-engage with the community for the most part. You, an other "knee jerk" people are just making it worse.

You can't possibly be adding anything meaningful to situation at this point as you don't have enough details to actually be able to form a valid opinion.

PGI says: We are testing going "Left" ... and then you stand up and say: "Since you have not explain exactly what LEFT is, I am going to Assume much and say: Go Right Instead!!!1!11 or MWO will Die!!11!!! and kittens will be killed!!11!".

Give it a rest already, let's see it on the test server, then we can judge. Who knows, it might actually be good. Or it might be terrible, but good for the game .. or it might be terrible and terrible for the game.

Remember kids, pointing out that this is just another hair brained scheme instead of an actual fix to the core problems this game's balance has is "being knee-jerk and reactionary." It doesn't take a genius to see that this just another band-aid due to PGI's unwillingness to address the obvious problems that have been plaguing Mechwarrior in general for ages.

Edited by TOGSolid, 13 August 2013 - 11:59 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Sprouticus, on 13 August 2013 - 10:25 AM, said:

you angry bro?

Seriously, you are reacting to a system we DONT EVEN HAVE DETAILS ON.


Maybe it will be as kludgy as the heat system (which I dont hate but think it not very elegant or intuitive), maybe it will be better. Instead of going off half cocked, why dont you want and see?

I have to admit this poster is partially right. I don't know about others here on the forums but I am not even close to 10% sure what "de-syncing" means let along 100%. I kind of doubt it means every weapon will be on chainfire though I guess it could mean that groups have a very slight delay between shots.

Still it is a bit early to go on a rant. Discussion yes, rant no.

The thing of it is, I am not even sure why it is needed in the first place. I have about 1800 matches under my belt and only rarely do I have any issues with the pin point alpha everyone moans about. Yes occassionally I do get hammered. I had two matches last night in fact where I went against the same exact highlander and both times he popped my RT wide open in two shots with a Dual PPC+Gauss build. That however is the exception, not the rule, enough so that I blame his being able to do it on myself due to the way I tried to approach him and engage him. Most people can't make the shot so most of the time I ignore it happening and that and only that is why I died.

The point is, there really isn't that big of problem however people seem to like to magnify the issue out of all proportion to reality. I have seen in time and time again on these forums. To be honest, I am not really sure how being the victim of an excellent shot with pin point alpha 2-3 times out of 50 matchs is a real issue, but you would think someone peed in their wheaties whenever it happens.

[Dimento Graven]

DaZur, on 13 August 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

In fairness connically and lore / novel wise (Yeah, I hate to resort to that too) a full weapons fire resulted in a missive heat spike that typically either shut the offender down or catalyzed various system failures. That's not to say a high-alpha build was impossible / improbable... they however came with their own subset of issues that partially mitigated their viability.

Which is why a heat affects table is so sorely missing from this game.

We have the full alpha with no real risk.

People can fire build 35+ point alpha strikes and fire them at least 3 times (maybe even more) as quickly as the weapon reset allows, before approaching shutdown.

That's just silly.

I don't say they shouldn't be able to, but after the first alpha they should at least be slower, after the second, even slower, weapon deconvergence, reticule drift, after the third, slower even more so, more weapon deconvergence, drastic reticule drift, fading of hud, some weapons randomly fail to fire, you start risking ammo explosions.

Without the risk you're just taking the current situation and creating a default 'chain fire' which people will continue to fire as quickly as the weapon reset allows, delaying bad player's deaths by what? As much as 3 whole seconds?!?!

The change PGI has described really doesn't seem to have a real point...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 13 August 2013 - 12:01 PM.

[Santiago25]

I agree with the original post in every way except for the proposed solution. I think adding convergence latency just adds to the frustration factor of the game and doesn't actually remove the alpha strike problem. However, changing the way the weapons work like TOGSolid suggested is a great idea. I personally don't think SRMs or LRMs would need to change, but the autocannons should definately be changed to a machine gun, and the PPC change is a great idea too (he suggested turning into a burst weapon). I think slowing the projectile down and/or adding charge up time (suggestion by AntiCitizenJuan) to the PPC could also work, and then reducing the efficency of the PPC. This wouldn't remove the alpha strike, but I honestly wouldn't have a problem with getting one shotted if I knew that it took an amazing marksman to pull it off (an amazing marksman could do the same with a laser if HSR worked an intended) and the knowledge that he produced enough heat to not fire twice in a row. Next, close range weapons (I am looking at you pulse lasers) should be massively buffed to make them much more effective than their long range counterparts. Thanks for considering my suggestions guys.

PGI, please stop adding confusing and frustrating mechanics like heat scaling and weapon de-synching and start balancing/changing the weapons instead.

[TOGSolid]

Viktor Drake, on 13 August 2013 - 11:58 AM, said:

I have to admit this poster is partially right. I don't know about others here on the forums but I am not even close to 10% sure what "de-syncing" means let along 100%. I kind of doubt it means every weapon will be on chainfire though I guess it could mean that groups have a very slight delay between shots.

Still it is a bit early to go on a rant. Discussion yes, rant no.

The thing of it is, I am not even sure why it is needed in the first place. I have about 1800 matches under my belt and only rarely do I have any issues with the pin point alpha everyone moans about. Yes occassionally I do get hammered. I had two matches last night in fact where I went against the same exact highlander and both times he popped my RT wide open in two shots with a Dual PPC+Gauss build. That however is the exception, not the rule, enough so that I blame his being able to do it on myself due to the way I tried to approach him and engage him. Most people can't make the shot so most of the time I ignore it happening and that and only that is why I died.

The point is, there really isn't that big of problem however people seem to like to magnify the issue out of all proportion to reality. I have seen in time and time again on these forums. To be honest, I am not really sure how being the victim of an excellent shot with pin point alpha 2-3 times out of 50 matchs is a real issue, but you would think someone peed in their wheaties whenever it happens.

Have you ever played 8 man/12 man matches because if you haven't then you really don't know what's going on balance wise.

[Ransack]

personally, I would prefer if they slowed the PPC projectile down again. Not as low as before which was a joke, but more than it is now.

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 13 August 2013 - 11:50 AM, said:

In fairness connically and lore / novel wise (Yeah, I hate to resort to that too) a full weapons fire resulted in a missive heat spike that typically either shut the offender down or catalyzed various system failures. That's not to say a high-alpha build was impossible / improbable... they however came with their own subset of issues that partially mitigated their viability.

75 point Alpha on a Stone Rhino. I could fire it 75, 75, 60 until my 3x Gauss ran out of ammo. Then it was 30,30,30,30 etc. There are a few Mechs like the Thug that could stay at a negative heat, alpha striking and running, the whole game. The problem this game has is how weapons converge. Why do people whine because of 35 damage when I am throwing up to 62 damage per Alpha? Is it cause they are getting hit "to far away"? Sorry I didn't know I had to let you(someone) bring a Knife to a gun fight! I am primarily a brawler. But like I learned in D&D back in the early 80s, If you don't prepare for combat intelligently you will get mopped up. So my shield wall fighter also had a comp Bow to be able to soften up an enemy at range. So a Gauss & ERPPC are my reach and SRMs add to my close punch. Combat 101. It is that basic.

[TOGSolid]

Ransack, on 13 August 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:

personally, I would prefer if they slowed the PPC projectile down again. Not as low as before which was a joke, but more than it is now.

Rolling back the PPC buffs in general was the very first thing they should have done. They were buffs implemented (as a band-aid) to make the weapon more viable before HSR was in. HSR went in and surprise surprise, now the weapon is overpowered. Instead of doing the really obvious thing and putting PPCs back to how they were and adjusting them from there PGI has astoundingly dragged their feet and hemmed and hawed about doing it while spouting ******** platitudes about wanting to be careful when balancing things.

Really? Where was that ******* care when they buffed PPCs in the first place knowing HSR was on the way?

Edited by TOGSolid, 13 August 2013 - 12:13 PM.

[Lyoto Machida]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 13 August 2013 - 11:05 AM, said:

i am not fond of this idea, it sounds like gauss or ppc is getting a charge time. this is going to really hurt single ppc/gauss users, while doing little to hurt dual ppc gauss users.

id rather see dual ppc combos take more heat and link gauss to the ppc.

How about just raising PPC heat back to where it was and not bringing Gauss into this mess?

[FatBabyThompkins]

Expanding upon that charged PPC idea...

Charge takes .5 seconds.
You must fire within an additional .5 seconds (1 second from when initial mouse click)
Start accruing heat if held down longer

Breakdown:
0 s - Hold button
.5 s - Ready to fire
1 s - +1 heat
1.5 s - +1 heat
2 s - +1 heat
2.5 s - +2 heat
3 s - +3 heat
3.5 s - +3 heat
4 s - +3 heat
4.5 s - +3 heat
5 s - Auto discharge, start weapon recycle time (4 s)

Stops click-boom sniper. Able to delay firing for better shot, but at expense of heat. Auto discharge causing weapon cycle. Only heat you accrued during extended charge counts for auto discharge.

Not entirely sold on the numbers, but it would definitely give the PPC warrior something to consider every single time they want to fire.

[Ransack]

TOGSolid, on 13 August 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Rolling back the PPC buffs in general was the very first thing they should have done. They were buffs implemented (as a band-aid) to make the weapon more viable before HSR was in. HSR went in and surprise surprise, now the weapon is overpowered. Instead of doing the really obvious thing and putting PPCs back to how they were and adjusting them from there PGI has astoundingly dragged their feet and hemmed and hawed about doing it while spouting ******** platitudes about wanting to be careful when balancing things.

Really? Where was that ******* care when they buffed PPCs in the first place knowing HSR was on the way?

Now let's be fair, we ARE in the middle of "Aggressive weapon balancing"

LMAO....

As I type it I can't stop laughing.

Edited by Ransack, 13 August 2013 - 12:18 PM.