15 replies to this topic

[1Sascha]

... and I'm not talking about the quick and dirty "fix" of cap-times. Which, IMO, isn't a fix at all.

The way it is now, way too many battles end in pointless capping. Either before a fight can start or even right in the middle of an epic battle. Reason is simple, at least in my experience: Gottawins and newbie's who don't/can't know better.

This is not the way this game is meant to be played and since you can't change people, you gotta change the game-mechanics involved.

Here's my solution - quick one first:
Disable capping for the first two or three minutes of the game.

More elaborate and more desirable solution:
Install AI-controlled defensive guns around bases. Auto-Cannons, MG-nests, LRM/SRM-launchers, etc. They should be just effective enough to make capping by a single light Mech nearly impossible. But ineffective enough that they can be taken out by a coordinated effort by 2 - 4 Mechs. Make them killable and have them come back from death after a certain amount of time. That way cappers not only would need to coordinate their efforts in taking them out but have something to worry about while capping.

Plus it would actually benefit the weaker team and make winning an Assault match with decimated numbers a (remote) possibility. Got only 2 guys left on the team with 10 enemies marching towards you? Retreat to the base, setup a defense and try and use the AI-guns to help you out.


S.

[Wintersdark]

3 minute no-cap timer: pointless. The only way to cap inside of three minutes is with a 4 man cap-accel team, and that's really not very common. The time change prevented one guy from early capping. It takes a LONG time to cap now. Barring the cap accel the, there's plenty of time to ignore the capper, crush the other team, and wander back.

Defenses: even worse. Now the best strategy is to camp your base for added firepower.... From the start of tue match!

Even before the change, actual cap wins in assault where rare - peoples confirmation bias skewed anecdotes aside. Actual cap wins happen leas than 1 in10 matches according to the metrics, and that was before the timing change.

[Typhoon Storm 2142]

1Sascha, on 13 August 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

... and I'm not talking about the quick and dirty "fix" of cap-times. Which, IMO, isn't a fix at all.

The way it is now, way too many battles end in pointless capping. Either before a fight can start or even right in the middle of an epic battle. Reason is simple, at least in my experience: Gottawins and newbie's who don't/can't know better.

This is not the way this game is meant to be played and since you can't change people, you gotta change the game-mechanics involved.

Here's my solution - quick one first:
Disable capping for the first two or three minutes of the game.

More elaborate and more desirable solution:
Install AI-controlled defensive guns around bases. Auto-Cannons, MG-nests, LRM/SRM-launchers, etc. They should be just effective enough to make capping by a single light Mech nearly impossible. But ineffective enough that they can be taken out by a coordinated effort by 2 - 4 Mechs. Make them killable and have them come back from death after a certain amount of time. That way cappers not only would need to coordinate their efforts in taking them out but have something to worry about while capping.

Plus it would actually benefit the weaker team and make winning an Assault match with decimated numbers a (remote) possibility. Got only 2 guys left on the team with 10 enemies marching towards you? Retreat to the base, setup a defense and try and use the AI-guns to help you out.

First, you should rather participate in an ongoing discussion before creating new threads about old, lame topics. You're not the first one who has this idea. 3 min. cap break? How creative! But 2000 other people already had this idea and posted them already.

They changed the cap time, what more do you want? Pure deathmatch is not possible with the huge maps we have. You should do alot more 12v12 matches until you realize that your post is completely useless. You sound like you never played a 12v12 match.

[1Sascha]

Quote

First, you should rather participate in an ongoing discussion before creating new threads about old, lame topics. You're not the first one who has this idea. 3 min. cap break? How creative! But 2000 other people already had this idea and posted them already.

They changed the cap time, what more do you want? Pure deathmatch is not possible with the huge maps we have. You should do alot more 12v12 matches until you realize that your post is completely useless. You sound like you never played a 12v12 match.

First, you should start working on your manners ... makes your argument that much more convincing.
Lashing out at someone on a personal level who is trying to bring up ideas is hardly what I'd call "constructive".

Besides: I haven't been around this long in MWONL and I'm certainly not going to read up all of the 1000s of threads on here, just to please the self-appointed board-police. The title pretty clearly described the content of this thread. If you don't like it, just don't open it.

Second: I wasn't talking about going the "pure Deathmatch" route - quite the opposite in fact.

Having some sort of AI-controlled element to prevent uncoordinated base-capping would actually add a level of strategy/tactics to the game and reward groups who work together smartly.

And it would prevent frustrating those players who actually try to fight a smart match - only to be cut short on their final push by some loner who decides to end the match by needlessly capping. I've been playing a lot of matches that ended precisely the way I described and the majority of players in those games (on both teams) didn't seem to like the outcome at all.


S.

[Farix]

The problem isn't with capping. The problem is with players who refuse to defend their base. No matter what PGI does, someone is going to complain that they "got capped" in Assault. PGI increased the amount of time it takes to cap a base so to give time to player in slow heavy and assault mechs time to respond and defend their base. However, players still aren't defending their base like they are suppose to. Assault is a capture-the-flag like game, so stop complaining when your flag is getting captured.

[Hil]

Farix, on 14 August 2013 - 03:13 AM, said:

The problem isn't with capping. The problem is with players who refuse to defend their base. No matter what PGI does, someone is going to complain that they "got capped" in Assault. PGI increased the amount of time it takes to cap a base so to give time to player in slow heavy and assault mechs time to respond and defend their base. However, players still aren't defending their base like they are suppose to. Assault is a capture-the-flag like game, so stop complaining when your flag is getting captured.

Oh no, this is funny! How can you prevent cap on large maps if no light mechs are alive (or they aren't there in the first place)? I can go back on almost any mech, but there's no point in it if one lance of 4 lights just gone to cap as soon as enemy was engaged in battle.
And the idea to leave some defenders near the base is completely bad if enemy is pushing the center with full force.

Of course, it's possible to just slow the capping, but It could lead us to game where capping is impossible in MOST cases. What I'd suggest is limiting the bonus for adding more mechs on cap. For instance, 1 mech has cap speed faster than today, like 2-2,5 minutes (120-150 sec) for complete cap, 2 mechs are 1.5x of THAT speed (80-100 sec), and no more bonuses for adding more cappers (or a tiny bonus like 5% for each next one)! Remove pilot module Cap Accelerator, or slow cap without module for additional 10%. Powered off mechs shouldn't cap at all.

Also, there are 2 options to aid the defenders:
1) if any capping mech leaves the base for more than 5 (try 3, 10) secs, or is dead (already implemented?), his personal cap counter should reset (resulting in reducing total cap, if 2 or more are capping).
OR
2) if mech capping the base is damaged by ENEMY only or dies, his personal cap is reset.

This would lead to some improvements:
1) less "battles without battles". Just sending 4 lights to cap won't make you win easily in most cases, but it can really weaken your main attack/defend group, and the bonus for having 4 mechs on cap is not big (easier to kill returning defenders + harder to reset total cap to 0, but not MUCH harder);
2) still a good chance to cap if enemy doesn't defend their base at all or sending 1 or 2 weak or heavily damaged mechs;
3) if there is no bonuses for 3+ mechs in base, there would be no chance to "overtake" 2 mech cap with more mechs in enemy base square. So no "capping race", if you have your base being capped, you can only go back and defend.

Capping should be last resort of loosing team or the way to relieve players from looking for hidden cowards or a punishment for really careless/reckless team. But not a general tactic to win, it's no fun, it makes MWO look like not a fun, but rathes competition, sport, etc., more like work.

[MrZakalwe]

I quite like the cap system as it stands and as I tend to play slow ploddy assault mechs that means its probably too hard to cap right now.

[Awesome Master]

Cap wins are quite annoying, especially at the start of the rounds or like 2-3 kills in.
I have an idea that could help prevent capping, you could maybe do it as (a = kmph)(n= number of mechs)

this is the mech stats,this can be repeated to the number of mechs there are on the cap.
v
((sqrt(a)*2.5)+10)+((sqrt(a)*2.5)+10)/(2^n)
^ ^
This curently shows there are two mechs

but atm this would fail because some 4 lights would make the cap fail extremely quickly like within 10 seconds, if someone could adjust my formulae a bit you might be able to get a reasonable cap rate.

Edited by Awesome Master, 14 August 2013 - 08:01 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

40+ games in the last 2 weeks (Man I have slowed down). 3 Caps. I think you need to hang back by your base so you can catch the sneaky lights alone. Before worrying about the enemy assault force.

[Bhael Fire]

Actually, rather than spew my redundant "defend your shít" speech...I'll change it up a bit.

The game modes in MWO are BORING and really need to be changed up a bit, as well. I've been suggesting that they add more robust/complex mission parameters with asymmetrical goals since closed beta. I eventually gave up suggesting it, because I don't think they are capable or it's just not really a priority to them.

That said, we have to deal with what we have. Until they decide it's important to add real game modes, then you need to just defend your shít. You have an extra lance to do that now, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 14 August 2013 - 08:20 PM.

[CrashieJ]

what we need is more game modes

then everything will be fixed

[Hil]

Look at world's top FPS games. (MWO is actually currently a FPS, yes?) What modes people play in Call of Duty 4, 5, 6, 7 etc.? 95% play Team Deathmatch, some play symmetrical Sabotage (demolish enemy base), some play asymmetrical Bomb (S&D). Every other mode is really, really rare. With BF we have other picture, but almost everyone says BF has terrible respawn in TDM, that's why.
So, although hardcore MWO fans will like new modes, but 90% will stay in 1, most popular, mode. TDM it is. Or War, if you call a mode 'TDM' only if it has respawn feature. 'War' is TDM with no respawn (in CoD).


Oh, by the way many people in World of Tanks also disable asymmetrical game modes... While there are those who like them.

Edited by Hil, 15 August 2013 - 05:25 AM.

[Bhael Fire]

Hil, on 15 August 2013 - 05:15 AM, said:

(MWO is actually currently a FPS, yes?)

"Currently" being the key word here; That's because of the generic game modes offered.

I can say right now, if they offered more robust objective based missions, I'd never set foot in a boring "Death Match" type mode ever again. And I think that would go for a lot of MWO fans...especially if the rewards were greater in the more complex modes.

Why? MWO is not a typical "run and gun" shooter like CoD or Battlefield. It's actually a first person tactical shooter and mech simulator, which deserves more robust game modes. The game modes in other shooters like CoD are still very "arcade" feeling. The types of objective based missions I'd like to see are more along the lines of those seen in Enemy Territory, where players can launch multi-map campaigns...with each map having a complex objective-based mission.

Death Match may be popular in typical shooters...but as I've mentioned, MWO is not typical.

Edited by Bhael Fire, 15 August 2013 - 07:43 AM.

[Alreech]

Bhael Fire, on 15 August 2013 - 07:37 AM, said:

Why? MWO is not a typical "run and gun" shooter like CoD or Battlefield. It's actually a first person tactical shooter and mech simulator, which deserves more robust game modes. The game modes in other shooters like CoD are still very "arcade" feeling. The types of objective based missions I'd like to see are more along the lines of those seen in Enemy Territory, where players can launch multi-map campaigns...with each map having a complex objective-based mission.

Death Match may be popular in typical shooters...but as I've mentioned, MWO is not typical.

Battlefield 2 and Battlefield 2142 are both tactical shooters.
Both include a working commander and squadleader interface, a working VOIP with separate channels for Squadmembers and Squadleaders/Commander and a quick chat system with pre-recorded voice files and icon.
Both games offer better tools for teamwork than MWO at the moment and have no Team Deathmatch as Game mode, only Conquest and Titan.

The sad thing is that most Players made a Deathmatch out of Conquest.
And I see no reason why you can't play MWO as run & gun shooter. Put a big engine in your Victor, a Gauss Rifle and two PPCs in the arms... and you can run and gun.
And then we will be able to choose the map before the game, most players will play with such Mechs on River "Karkand" City.

If the majority of the players decide that is much easier to do run an gun than using teamwork it's the game is not a tactical Shooter, it's Call of modern Battletech.

[Bhael Fire]

Alreech, on 15 August 2013 - 09:50 AM, said:

If the majority of the players decide that is much easier to do run an gun than using teamwork it's the game is not a tactical Shooter, it's Call of modern Battletech.

Again, this is a symptom of not having robust objective-based missions in MWO. That's my point; if there's only two varieties of death match, that's pretty much how players are going to play...it's implied that's what they expect you to do.

I think MWO and its players deserve much better than that.

[Firewuff]

with 12 VS 12 there is NO reason not to have 1-2 mechs to at least spot for your base and watch for cap. If I get 1 mech there I'm dead, if my team get 4 mechs there and no one is defending then your team are idiots and need to use better tactics.

8 move up to the main line, 2 stay in sight of approaches to the main base, 2 in between for fast response. Cap is so slow now the only way you cando it it get a big team through the lines and only then on larger maps