99 replies to this topic

[Kunae]

Deathlike, on 19 August 2013 - 06:46 AM, said:

One thing about knockdowns is that people who like it seems to think this is panacea that fixes everything.. it is not. I understand people not liking how light mechs "pass through them" with good reason, but you know this effect is not limited to light mechs. Sometimes I wonder the people arguing for such a feature try to justify it with weak reasoning.

Yep, it affects everyone. And this is a good thing.

I would have preferred that they kept it in, even in the broken state that it was.

lockwoodx, on 19 August 2013 - 06:51 AM, said:

ECM won't save you from other Jenners, so there's little point to having it. /thread

Not having a variant with ECM removes the ability of a Jenner to effectively work as a scout or LRM spotter. This is especially evident on all of the small maps we currently have.

[Dimento Graven]

I can't disagree with nay-sayers more on this.

There's already TONS of ECM out there, every match, having Jenners with ECM too would just be, *yawn* more of the same...

The only thing that ECM really does is affect missile locks. Direct fire weapons still kill ECM enabled 'mechs with same ease and utility as they always have, and if your own team has matching ECM and pilots who know how to use it, you probably will be able to use your missiles with out much issue too.

Everything else, EVERYTHING else done by ECM is a known factor and with the changes in BAP not so difficult to over come.

I don't pilot Jenners all that often, I own the founders and the Jenny (both the same model) so I don't have any hidden agenda here to create some all powerful frankenmech here.

I just don't see it as a balance issue. You people keep saying it will make them "more powerful" but haven't really provided specifics. So they can block some missile locks, big deal. A properly piloted Jenner already knows how to make missiles miss them 90% of the time anyway with the craptastic missile mechanics, so it's not like they don't have that benefit already.

It doesn't make them faster, it doesn't make their weapons do more damage, it doesn't make them more nimble, it doesn't add any armor, it doesn't do anything extra to HSR, or lag shielding, or any thing like that.

I just don't see the specifics as to what it does, OTHER THAN, making ONE PARTICULAR variant (which ever one would happen to end up with the ECM hard point) more popular than the rest, and to that I say, big deal...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 19 August 2013 - 07:17 AM.

[Kunae]

Dimento Graven, on 19 August 2013 - 07:16 AM, said:

I can't disagree with nay-sayers more on this.

There's already TONS of ECM out there, every match, having Jenners with ECM too would just be, *yawn* more of the same...

The only thing that ECM really does is affect missile locks. Direct fire weapons still kill ECM enabled 'mechs with same ease and utility as they always have, and if your own team has matching ECM and pilots who know how to use it, you probably will be able to use your missiles with out much issue too.

Everything else, EVERYTHING else done by ECM is a known factor and with the changes in BAP not so difficult to over come.

I don't pilot Jenners all that often, I own the founders and the Jenny (both the same model) so I don't have any hidden agenda here to create some all powerful frankenmech here.

I just don't see it as a balance issue. You people keep saying it will make them "more powerful" but haven't really provided specifics. So they can block some missile locks, big deal. A properly piloted Jenner already knows how to make missiles miss them 90% of the time anyway with the craptastic missile mechanics, so it's not like they don't have that benefit already.

It doesn't make them faster, it doesn't make their weapons do more damage, it doesn't make them more nimble, it doesn't add any armor, it doesn't do anything extra to HSR, or lag shielding, or any thing like that.

I just don't see the specifics as to what it does, OTHER THAN, making ONE PARTICULAR variant (which ever one would happen to end up with the ECM hard point) more popular than the rest, and to that I say, big deal...

Good post.

[Dimento Graven]

Deathlike, on 19 August 2013 - 07:23 AM, said:

Those that know how powerful the Jenner is, in addition to the power of ECM, knows exactly what will happen when these two are combined... EVEN if the Jenner that gets ECM is the K. I will simply say this in advance... you should prepare to bow down to your ECM Jenner overlords soon enough.

And yet, NO ONE has been able to specify exactly WHAT will ACTUALLY happen if a Jenner variant were to get an ECM.

No one has been able to spell out, SPECIFICALLY, how the Jenner will go from being a decent skirmisher to an untouchable undefeatable force that will lay waste to all before it.

You guys just keep effectively saying, "OMG OP OP OP..."

Not much of an argument if you ask me...

[Dimento Graven]

lockwoodx, on 19 August 2013 - 07:33 AM, said:

So why did BinLaden have to hide for years inside of little holes, mountains, ect? He was afraid of being shelled to death, and keeping him hidden was an effective way of minimalizing his impact on the battlefield. If all it takes is a missile lock to keep Jenner pilots in hiding, they weren't very good to begin with. Man up ladies, ECM is a crutch that allows players to get more done without having to worry about locks. Inferior mechs require such a crutch, as well as inferior pilots.

First off, the red herring there of BinLaden, he wasn't just afraid of missiles, but all sorts of other direct fire weapons too, but again, that's a distraction, so let's not go down that road.

As far as ECM completely blocking missile locks, ONLY IF, the other team doesn't have their own ECM to counter, or players who know how to use ECM, OR, a missile carrier without BAP, OR, no other 'mechs brought or know how to aim with direct fire weapons.

Edit: oh yeah, OR PPC/ERPPC's to disrupt, etc., etc....

Edited by Dimento Graven, 19 August 2013 - 07:50 AM.

[Deathlike]

Kunae, on 19 August 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

Never a good sign when a lead developer gets all butt-hurt about something and makes changes on that basis.

It's funny when you think about it.

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I wasn't talking about skirmishing, I was talking about scouting and spotting. Since you brought it up, though, skirmishing has been hurt by the meta changes over the last 10 months. HSR, SRM spread nerf, SRM damage nerf, PPC speed increase, PPC heat redux, ECM, Streak buff, LRM buff, JJ nerf, JJ shake nerf, etc, etc.

Scouting and spotting was always a non-issue for me as a Jenner. Yes, I don't have ECM, but just because they spotted me doesn't automatically get me insta-gibbed.

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It really won't make that much of a difference to combat power, but will allow one of the variants to extend their functions into traditional light-roles, which are pretty much non-existent, atm.

Role warfare is practically non-existent, so it makes no difference there ultimately.

Dimento Graven, on 19 August 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

And yet, NO ONE has been able to specify exactly WHAT will ACTUALLY happen if a Jenner variant were to get an ECM.

No one has been able to spell out, SPECIFICALLY, how the Jenner will go from being a decent skirmisher to an untouchable undefeatable force that will lay waste to all before it.

You guys just keep effectively saying, "OMG OP OP OP..."

Not much of an argument if you ask me...

Do you think Jenners are the most dominant of the light mechs (in terms of #s and effectiveness of the good pilots)? If your answer is no, please explain why.

Remember once upon a time, the Raven-3L was reviled for being the ultimate ECM package... defeating opposing Streaks like it was nothing. Of course, ECM, Streaks, BAP, and Raven leg hitboxes have changed (plus the minor movement nerf) and the Raven is not as dominating as it used to be. A Jenner is a good replacement for the depressed Raven-3L usage.

Also, the Spider-5D is getting more play, but it doesn't have the same offensive impact as a Jenner. Although.. I've seen them be cleverly used as ECM hidden TAG spotters before... which can actually be effective. Remember... the 5D combines JJs+ECM in a nice package, except the 3 energy hardpoints doesn't make it as powerful as the Jenner's 4 (and the Jenner's arms allow for more options than the 5D's CT).

The Commando-2D... well... it's never pretty with them. I'm not sure what to make of them in the current meta, especially with the Streak nerf.

Combining what the Spider-5D does (ECM-ninja missile TAG spotting) and what the Raven-3L used to do in a Jenner-K, will make them perhaps the most indispensable Jenner of them all.

Edited by Deathlike, 19 August 2013 - 08:03 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Deathlike, on 19 August 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

Combining what the Spider-5D does (ECM-ninja missile TAG spotting) and what the Raven-3L used to do in a Jenner-K, will make them perhaps the most indispensable Jenner of them all.

That and BlackJack pilots will throw a tissy for not being the most perfectly balanced mech anymore.

[Dimento Graven]

Deathlike, on 19 August 2013 - 08:00 AM, said:

Do you think Jenners are the most dominant of the light mechs (in terms of #s and effectiveness of the good pilots)? If your answer is no, please explain why.

No, I do not, mainly because I see as many Raven's and Spiders, and even Commandos as I do Jenners when I'm playing.

I'm a fairly decent Raven pilot, and even without my SSRMs (due to having multiple ECM carriers around), my 2 ML's (because my 3rd energy point has a TAG in it) and I have killed more than our fair share of Jenners. They're easier to kill than other Ravens and Commandos and Spiders just because they are so much larger than the other lights.

They're as easy, if not easier to leg than a Raven and those big unblocked left/right torsos means that any Jenner foolish enough to equip an XL is going down VERY fast.

And if I'm not in my Raven but in any of my other 'mechs they're even easier to kill just because most of my other 'mechs have THAT MUCH MORE fire power, and I understand the concept of leading a moving target (which I endeavor to practice more and more).

Quote

Remember once upon a time, the Raven-3L was reviled for being the ultimate ECM package... defeating opposing Streaks like it was nothing. Of course, ECM, Streaks, BAP, and Raven leg hitboxes have changed (plus the minor movement nerf) and the Raven is not as dominating as it used to be. A Jenner is a good replacement for the depressed Raven-3L usage.

Also, the Spider-5D is getting more play, but it doesn't have the same offensive impact as a Jenner. Although.. I've seen them be cleverly used as ECM hidden TAG spotters before... which can actually be effective. Remember... the 5D combines JJs+ECM in a nice package, except the 3 energy hardpoints doesn't make it as powerful as the Jenner's 4 (and the Jenner's arms allow for more options than the 5D's CT).

The Commando-2D... well... it's never pretty with them. I'm not sure what to make of them in the current meta, especially with the Streak nerf.

Combining what the Spider-5D does (ECM-ninja missile TAG spotting) and what the Raven-3L used to do in a Jenner-K, will make them perhaps the most indispensable Jenner of them all.

Well you've pretty much stated all the reasons why ECM doesn't mean invulnerability for the Jenner:

BAP
plus the minor movement nerf

and again let's not forget:

PPC/ERPPC disruption of ECM

And stating that a Jenner will be as effective/more effective than a Spider in providing hidden LRM/tag spotting, well, I disagree with that as the Spider is actually harder to see due to its size. A Jenner is only a little smaller than a Cicada and more easily seen, and if you can see a Jenner, you can kill it...

[A banana in the tailpipe]

Dimento Graven, on 19 August 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

if you can see a Jenner, you can kill it...

"I can dodge a wrench but I have hard time dodging balls." Credit goes to my woman for that one. (like the new sig? since I came back this game and the forums have done nothing but crash due to driver errors. PGI must be feuding with Nvidia or something lol)

Edited by lockwoodx, 19 August 2013 - 08:53 AM.

[Deathlike]

Dimento Graven, on 19 August 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

No, I do not, mainly because I see as many Raven's and Spiders, and even Commandos as I do Jenners when I'm playing.

I'm a fairly decent Raven pilot, and even without my SSRMs (due to having multiple ECM carriers around), my 2 ML's (because my 3rd energy point has a TAG in it) and I have killed more than our fair share of Jenners. They're easier to kill than other Ravens and Commandos and Spiders just because they are so much larger than the other lights.

They're as easy, if not easier to leg than a Raven and those big unblocked left/right torsos means that any Jenner foolish enough to equip an XL is going down VERY fast.

And if I'm not in my Raven but in any of my other 'mechs they're even easier to kill just because most of my other 'mechs have THAT MUCH MORE fire power, and I understand the concept of leading a moving target (which I endeavor to practice more and more).

Just because there are other lights on the field, most of the time, they aren't very good at making themselves very annoying and/or productive.

Quote

Well you've pretty much stated all the reasons why ECM doesn't mean invulnerability for the Jenner:

BAP
plus the minor movement nerf

and again let's not forget:

PPC/ERPPC disruption of ECM

The movement nerf actually hurts Ravens more than Jenners.

ECM disruption is most useful against Atlases... not necessarily lights. It just happens that many are carrying PPCs due to the meta.

Quote

And stating that a Jenner will be as effective/more effective than a Spider in providing hidden LRM/tag spotting, well, I disagree with that as the Spider is actually harder to see due to its size. A Jenner is only a little smaller than a Cicada and more easily seen, and if you can see a Jenner, you can kill it...

I never said it would be MORE effective... I'm saying it can be AS effective. The Spider's profile is small, but when any light mech is played correctly, not being seen unless you want to be seen is actually the most optimal use of a light.

I swear, you have not been playing at a high enough level to see the more "creative" uses of the Jenner, or the Spider. The differences in play are a lot more interesting than regular PUG play.

[Dimento Graven]

Deathlike, on 19 August 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Just because there are other lights on the field, most of the time, they aren't very good at making themselves very annoying and/or productive.

Yet even now with the apparently broken Spider hit detection, we're not seeing ONLY the Spider on the battlefield, and likewise back when the Raven was having its heyday, it was NOT the only light on the battlefield. SOME people apparently are able to make the non-Jenner, non-ECM capable light 'mechs variants effective, otherwise, we'd hardly ever see them... So y'know, I'm not sure how much much water your argument holds.

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The movement nerf actually hurts Ravens more than Jenners.

I disagree, as I recall the Jenner tops out at a slightly higher speed than the Raven, 152 vs 151, so the Jenner gets hurt by this more, PLUS, the Jenner's size makes it an easier target at the slower speed...

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ECM disruption is most useful against Atlases... not necessarily lights. It just happens that many are carrying PPCs due to the meta.

Unless something extremely stupid happens (knock on wood, we ALL know how often PGI does something extremely stupid), ERPPC/PPC's will continue to be in the meta, I can't see a scenario where there won't be multiple 'mechs carrying AT LEAST one PPC type weapon. As far as it being more useful against Atlases, I can only assume you mean because of their size and being easier to hit, true, but the Atlas makes up for that size with more armor and fire power than the other ECM carriers, so it's all relative. 1 PPC hit disrupting an Atals for a few seconds won't hurt as much as 1 PPC hit against all the lighter variants just on an "armor loss" measurement, then of course there's the potential missile hit issue as well.

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I never said it would be MORE effective... I'm saying it can be AS effective. The Spider's profile is small, but when any light mech is played correctly, not being seen unless you want to be seen is actually the most optimal use of a light.

I don't even think it would be "as" effective as the Spider, but now we're arguing opinion.

Quote

I swear, you have not been playing at a high enough level to see the more "creative" uses of the Jenner, or the Spider. The differences in play are a lot more interesting than regular PUG play.

Maybe not, it is possible. Without knowing our ELO and how it compares to others none of us can be totally sure of our 'ranking' in the system. However, maybe it's visa versa, maybe you haven't been playing at a high enough level with people who know how to aim and shoot at fast moving lights.

The only time I get even a little nervous at the sight of a light 'mech is if there's 2 or more of them coming at me and I'm all by myself, otherwise it's, take a deep breath, lead, lead, ZAP, ooo, there goes a leg, component destruction bonus yay! And Zap, zap, kill, or at the very least kill assist.

So again it just goes to show that unalterable principle, "Your mileage may vary."

[Helmer]

Kunae, on 19 August 2013 - 07:32 AM, said:

Never a good sign when a lead developer gets all butt-hurt about something and makes changes on that basis.

The urban myth that persists.

Not that anyone will believe me, but the decision to take out ramming was made before the now infamous match. To reason with the more cynical players, PGI takes forever to do anything, do you honestly think they took out ramming in 1 week based off a bit of light trolling?



Cheers.

[Kunae]

Helmer, on 19 August 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

The urban myth that persists.

Not that anyone will believe me, but the decision to take out ramming was made before the now infamous match. To reason with the more cynical players, PGI takes forever to do anything, do you honestly think they took out ramming in 1 week based off a bit of light trolling?



Cheers.

With normal things, no. When Paul is directly involved, sure do!

[Helmer]

Kunae, on 19 August 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

With normal things, no. When Paul is directly involved, sure do!

Hahah. I can see why people believe it, and they have no reason not to.
It just makes me chuckle everytime I see it.


Cheers.

[Dimento Graven]

Helmer, on 19 August 2013 - 11:13 AM, said:

The urban myth that persists.

Not that anyone will believe me, but the decision to take out ramming was made before the now infamous match. To reason with the more cynical players, PGI takes forever to do anything, do you honestly think they took out ramming in 1 week based off a bit of light trolling?



Cheers.

Yes. Absolutely. "Most of the time" it may take them to make most changes, however, all it takes is the right kind of motivation and the seemingly impossible becomes possible...

Niko Snow, on 19 August 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

Two participants in this thread have to either stop replying to eachother or stop reporting eachother.
You know who you are.

This makes me giggle...

[Budor]

Great idea! They should also add a ECM-Stalker and ECM-Highlander while they are at it and bring the Awesome in line because its not fair that you can mount much more energy weapons on it and go so FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAST!

[Dimento Graven]

Budor, on 19 August 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Great idea! They should also add a ECM-Stalker and ECM-Highlander while they are at it and bring the Awesome in line because its not fair that you can mount much more energy weapons on it and go so FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAST!

To be honest I wouldn't mind if other, larger 'mechs were also ECM capable.

[Villz]

Niko Snow, on 19 August 2013 - 11:18 AM, said:

Two participants in this thread have to either stop replying to eachother or stop reporting eachother.
You know who you are.

miSs, on 19 August 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

More posts have been removed. Niko's warning was not an invititation to turn this into a meta-discussion.

Back on topic, thanks in advance.

LAWL OWNT!

[Deathlike]

Helmer, on 19 August 2013 - 11:41 AM, said:

Hahah. I can see why people believe it, and they have no reason not to.
It just makes me chuckle everytime I see it.


Cheers.

It's still funny and still relevant despite it being unrelated.

[BookWyrm]

Budor, on 19 August 2013 - 12:07 PM, said:

Great idea! They should also add a ECM-Stalker and ECM-Highlander while they are at it and bring the Awesome in line because its not fair that you can mount much more energy weapons on it and go so FAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAST!

I tried to keep the tone of the original post as neutral as possible and don't believe an opinion was stated. Why not just vote on the poll and state why you feel the way you do?