10 replies to this topic

[Brenden]

Basically put, there are so many different varieties of many things: Intek Medium Lasers and Defiance Medium Lasers for starters, that it got me wondering. Why have more then one kind of Medium Laser if they're all practically the same thing? Okay, I can see each Great House and/or Clan having at least one type of Laser that is unique to their own, a Fedcom Medium Laser vs a Capellan Medium Laser, but what happened to the Arms Race? Surely one Great House would have made a Medium Laser that's Better, even marginally, compared to the other's to have a tactical advantage? Maybe it has a built-in Heatsink, maybe it's slightly lighter or more compact, or maybe it's made of high durable materials allowing it to sustain better damage and last longer without repairs or with little of them?

So, here, is where you and I can post what we think is the difference betwixt all these different companies and their weapons or armour. Same with chassis and engine types and all that. Please take into account that this is all based on speculation, and is honesty here is the best policy. So, please do not disrespect other's and hide it as honesty I.E. 'That laser wouldn't work because thats dumb - just being honest'. And all that.

Have fun! Here are mine.

The difference between the Diverse Optics Type 2 Medium Laser model and the ChisComp 39 is that the Diverse Optics Type 2 Medium Laser is made of a slightly lighter metal and components then the ChisComp, making it 2% lighter then the CC Medium Laser while having a slight increase in bulk - about the same in 2%. The difference between the ChisComp 39 Model of the Medium Laser is that this model can fire off at an extra 10 Meters.[/color]

Perhaps the difference between a Donal PPC an a Magna Hellstar PPC is that the Donal PPC is much more durable then the Magna Hellstar and that it's able to be mounted onto a Rifle-of sorts for the Battlemech, while the Magna Hellstar deals much more electrical damage then just heat and kinetic, thus having an increase chance of frying the target's circuits and electronics.[/color]

Perhaps the difference between a Holly LRM-5 and a Delta Dart LRM-5 is that the Holly LRMs tend to spread out more uniformly while the Delta Dart closes it tightly once fired from the tubes, and are slightly more accurate as a cause.[/color]

Edited by Brenden, 02 September 2013 - 08:15 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Back when PGI was really interested in adding all kinds of stuff like this, we thought we'd get different "Brands" of guns that achieve the same overall DPS but with slightly different firing mechanics, since that's how the different brands work in the fluff. (i.e. someone's AC/20 might be a big quick burst vs another's single shell).

Unfortunately, whoever had the skills to edit XML files apparently left PGI around the time ECM got put in, so right now I'd be happy with them adding and subtracting a few numbers from the guns we do have.

A real shame, I'd loved to see this added to MechWarrior.

[Karl Streiger]

Not refering to the HOW it is implemented in MWO

- a MLAS is a standardized weapon.
- but the only thing that could really be standardized - is the energy that is necessary to recharge the storrage banks of the weapon.
For example each MLAS has a one or multiple storrage banks for a sum of 10 MW.

Depends on the lens diameter and output - how fast the weapon can fire and how much damage each shot will inflict.

For example a high energy MLAS could have a caliber of 2.5 - 3.7 cm - and fires only once every 10 seconds
While another smaller MLAS has a caliber of 1cm or even 6mm and fires each second.

The larger the weapon the more fragile it is - so a constant "burnrate" will result in a more durable weapon - for the costs of penetration or damage - while BT armor is ablativ - that isn't a real concern.



The same approach could be used for all other kind of weapons: the "burnrate" how fast a ballistic weapon eats through its ammo define its class.

LRMs are more interesting - instead of firing 20 missiles a LRM 20 could fire for example 12 missiles or even only four with proximity fuse

[Stormwolf]

The weapons are generally the same, it's the shape and connectors that vary from manufacturer to manufacturer.
This is pretty much the reasone why it's so hard to get replacement AC10's for the CN9-A Centurion for example.

Another example here is the Crimson Hawk, it has two ER Large lasers from different manufacturers, they are however functionally the same.

Edited by Stormwolf, 03 September 2013 - 05:12 AM.

[Slade Deleportas]

Also it's been stated in past fluff that the different lasers do give different performance but for the sake of simplicity a ML is a ML.

If you dig around enough you will find write ups that say like the intek runs a little hotter but does a bit more damage, and the Defiance gives you like 15 more meters range, but a touch less damage. So not enough in the boardgame to warrant a bunch of new stats, but fluff wise can be fun reads.

Or like on the original Rifleman, the targeting computer was REALLY good at AAA fire etc. That one is actually mentioned in the quirks for mechs in Strategic Ops. Wuirks are a really fun wa to spice up Btech.

[Brenden]

Welp, I made all this up because.. Well, I have no books or E-Books of Battletech to use! As much as it pains me, I know almost very little about this sort of thing so I thought hey, why not? Maybe people could contribute their own ideas as to what makes brands different and all that, mostly because I have little understanding of it myself as well as many other of those I know.

Another idea of mine is that the Even Number LRMS/ 10s and 20s, fire in bursts but different brands have different ways of doing it.
Zeus may, for instance, fire five missiles at once and then finish that up with groups of five, while Holly may fire one after the other in a stream going down.

[Slade Deleportas]

Lol Brenden, you just goofing around in your head/playing MWO is very close to the truth.

The original Atlas has an LRM 20, but only 5 tubes in it's chest. It had special rapid reload so it could pop all 20 in the same time frame that 20 tubes can. So that's how MWO does it. If my Raven has 2 tubes, it fires that LRM 20 as ten groups of 2 missile.

[Karl Streiger]

Slade Deleportas, on 04 September 2013 - 01:29 AM, said:

The original Atlas has an LRM 20, but only 5 tubes in it's chest. It had special rapid reload so it could pop all 20 in the same time frame that 20 tubes can. So that's how MWO does it. If my Raven has 2 tubes, it fires that LRM 20 as ten groups of 2 missile.

Only in MWO - first modells had two launchers with 4 rows of 5 missiles each - at each side of the chest.

Not the firing mechanism is unique to the FarFIre Missile system - it is the reloading system - i like this explanation a bit more - cause it shows that Mech Criticals is just an abstraction - of internal volume.

Although the first TRO Artwork only have 6 launcher - like in MWO.



(A real live missile system for the Atlas -could consist of - for example - 12 x 3 2m-2,6m long missiles - ranging up to 64km. Each with a weight of 100 to 140kg)

[MustrumRidcully]

Aren't LRMs treated in groups of 5? So theoretically, one LRM20 launcher might fire 20 missiles, and another 5, and another 10. That would probably clash with TT AMS mechanics, however.
Though, the claim that ACs fire different projectile sizes and have different rates of fire despite the same classification also doesn't seem to be represented well in the rules, either. If an AC/20 really fires sometimes 1 big bullet and sometimes 20, why do they all land at the same hit location?

[Brenden]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 September 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

Aren't LRMs treated in groups of 5? So theoretically, one LRM20 launcher might fire 20 missiles, and another 5, and another 10. That would probably clash with TT AMS mechanics, however.
Though, the claim that ACs fire different projectile sizes and have different rates of fire despite the same classification also doesn't seem to be represented well in the rules, either. If an AC/20 really fires sometimes 1 big bullet and sometimes 20, why do they all land at the same hit location?

Battletech Logic. Though sometimes it's not twenty smaller shells, maybe it's like two, five or seven in one case I read. Hmm. But most of this is, well, fluff. To most, it doesn't really matter. All that matters is that their AC-20 either hits a critical spot, knocks off a limb, blows the center torso or hits the head. In that same respect, the same could be said about LRMs. Though some people might want an explanation as to how six tubes can fire twenty missiles in one salvo, I know that most probably won't care. So, in the event no one cares, that is where Battletech logic comes in: I.E. Why does 20 bullets hit the target and they all land at the same target? Logic of FASA at the time I believe, is that no one would probably notice so they decided to make off with extra rules regarding those types of ACs.

Hmm.. Didn't the original machine gun used to have 1 damage? Imagine how OP that would be in MWO with the rate of fire it has.

[Karl Streiger]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 September 2013 - 06:15 AM, said:

Aren't LRMs treated in groups of 5? So theoretically, one LRM20 launcher might fire 20 missiles, and another 5, and another 10. That would probably clash with TT AMS mechanics, however.
Though, the claim that ACs fire different projectile sizes and have different rates of fire despite the same classification also doesn't seem to be represented well in the rules, either. If an AC/20 really fires sometimes 1 big bullet and sometimes 20, why do they all land at the same hit location?

Well - of course you can use that approach - same for ACs
To admit - it is the most common - in newer novels.

But the good old Gray Death Legion - used other design idioms.

The AC 5 Whirlwind of the MAD - 3D was a 120mm caliber gun firing 5 shells per shot. With a ammunition storrage of 20 clips.
The AC 5 of the Rifleman were 60? or 80mm firign 10 shells.
The AC 10 of the Centurion was 80mm too.
The Pontiac 100 AC 20 was listed as 60mm gun firign 100 shells in 6 seconds. (thats 1000 rpm)

- what about the missiles - In Tactics of Duty the Doombud LRM 20 of Alexander Carlyle fired a dozen missiles. (I read all the novels in German - so i don't know if there are translation mistakes)
A dozen is interesting (the Archer has 12 shots per launcher) - because it is a known mistake for some players that are new to BT - to place 3tons of LRM ammunition to the LRM 20 - because 3tons = 18shots,

So what if you look behind the figures - try to imagin how a weapon could work - when you only have the artwork:

here are some examples:
Condor II -> Valiant Arlabest LRM 15 -


You see 16 large war heads - and I don't think that it is possible to reload them through the launcher - so the Condor II can only fire 1 missile per tube. That means its 16 shots (2ton of ammunition = 16 missiles) that means each missile deal a total of 15 damage.
That damage in 5 brackets could happen: proximity fuse - and the blast damage the Mech. Sub Munition - AMS or other Hard Kill system - can shot down the missile - before it arrives - reduced damage through blast - or it shots down some of the sub munition.

Or look at that Atlas:

You have something that looks like a bit bore recoilless rifle
a launcher with 6 tubes at the chest and 5 tubes at the hip next to the recoilless rifle.

Next you have a tiny long barrel cannon at the other hip - and something black - were i don't have any idea what it could be:
So this Atlas may have a reloading system (revolver) at the chest - launching 6 missiles (LRM) - and a OS LRM launcher at the hip - while the SRM is the big bore recoilless rifle.

However - at the TRO 3025 revised cover

The Atlas is - "fixed"
The SRM 6 at the hip has 6 starters (with 1 - moved back)
The LRM has 4x5 starters - but in the lore are named only 5 tubes

Quote

the designers decided to install five tubes with a feed system that can shoot four salvos within 10 seconds

I don't like this explanation - its to "boring" like in the novels were the writer just wrote down how the weapons hit - not because it is interesting but because he has to fill pages (Prince of Havoc is the best example - for this skill - I know the reason however)


OK - most Mechs have the correct number of tubes: only vehicles are curious:

The tripple barrel Chin mount is a AC 2 - and the launchers (2 at each side) is a SRM 4


Striker:


The Big tubes - are LRM 10s and the small tubes are SRM - doesn't look like a good ratio

BUT that is not only part of the missiles:
here the favorite example of artworks gone ill:


THE BIG bore is a LBX 20 - with ammunition in the rear legs...how could that work?
Never - you can not explain the LORE of cluster ammunition - because that Gustav class grenade has to be stored somewhere. So the best explanation - if you need one is - that this BIG Bore is a Metal Storm system - all small caliber shots are stored withing multiple barrels - (did you read John Ringo - When the Devil Dances, 2002 - the 40mm system with 100 barrels or the 105mm with 12 barrels) - a cluster shot is one grenade of each barrel - a slug round is - all shots of a barrel.

Well you can explain it in that way - or you modify your barghest mini to be a 7 version with 4 laser and a MML

So I'm still not done:
Look at the two lasers of the Barghest - that are large lasers.
Well now take a look at the arms of that thing:

thats large lasers too:
or the "pistol"


Thats a large laser - too.



That is just a small trip into the madness of BattleTech.
Lets think about if all those guns with all there different manufactuers and behaviours.

I think it is more simpler - to say all Lasers, guns and missiles have the same performance - and leave the details to the players. (for example - like assault rifles - different calibers, weights and manufactuers - but in the end they are good at medium range - and can kill people)





In general you can say:
BT - weapons are to heavy
BT - ammuntion is to light
BT - armor is magic