55 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

tuffy963, on 16 August 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

Ah, so you are arguing against another ppc nerf for all those players who are not as skilled as you. Again, I would happily risk your theoretical dominance on the battlefield to see this weapon get another balance nerf.

Just for fun, this was taken just yesterday:


Although, having 5 of Sarah's Jenner surely put that over the top.

[DaZur]

Soldryn, on 16 August 2013 - 08:22 AM, said:

Ya know, if we didn't have this stupid mechanic of allowing weapons to do damage outside their maximum range we wouldn't have ANY of these problems. If the gauss/ppc people couldn't sit at 800-1km+ and still do damage, brawlers would be an actual threat to them. If you had to be inside 750m to do your damage, you might have to, dare i say it, THINK about your positioning more.

That's a fair assessment...

Real-world ballistics begin dropping velocity shortly after they leave the barrel and drop off is linear. In MW:O application max damage would only be credited out maybe half the power curve and would drop steadily to zero out to the max range.

[Donnie Silveray]

With the recent heat nerf I don't know yet just how much more to go in that direction. For now I'd try out breaking it's sheer utility as a weapon. Weren't beam weapons such as Large Lasers better used in BT for their utility?

Currently the PPC velocity is insaaaanely fast, a leftover from the days before HSR. All ballistic weapons had their velocity upped to make it easier to aim, and frankly it works out in the current game since they are ammuniton based and need to reach their optimal ranges in good time. Dropping the PPC velocity would make it less The Weapon to use for sniping and more as a powerful midrange heavy hitter on par with the AC10. I think the ER PPC should somewhat retain it's huge velocity as it is a high heat sniper weapon, the alternative to the Gauss Rifle, but maybe have its heat sliiightly increased, maybe by 1 point to 13 heat.

Pros
Easily performed changes, can be iterated on quickly. ERPPC becomes the preferred combo item with Gauss and takes in more heat, increasing the risk of using such a high heat combo on a mech not built for it. (16 tons for a gun and more for ammo is a lot of space not spent on heat sinks).

Cons
The synergy between ERPPC and Gauss isn't changed, simply made more risky. Requires iteration. Doesn't reform the system to be cleaner. Doesn't resolve alpha striking, simply makes it less easy.

I'm not in a terribly thoughtful mood, just my two cents on how to push more utility in hitscan beam weapons.

Edited by Donnie Silveray, 16 August 2013 - 08:39 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

DaZur, on 16 August 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

No offense OP but what a silly statement...

How many is too many exactly?

PPC are an apex weapon... big damage that is all front-loaded. Exactly as it's supposed to be. Under the present meta, there is no greater goal other than to kill other mechs, why on God's green earth would a sane person not utilize the tools given...

Granted... I'm borderline nuts so I don't use them... but I'm speaking in generalized terms.

We must be sharing Meds DaZur! I have One (ER)PPC and 3 Gauss(one on each of my Assaults).

[tuffy963]

DaZur, on 16 August 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

No offense OP but what a silly statement...

How many is too many exactly?

PPC are an apex weapon... big damage that is all front-loaded. Exactly as it's supposed to be. Under the present meta, there is no greater goal other than to kill other mechs, why on God's green earth would a sane person not utilize the tools given...

Granted... I'm borderline nuts so I don't use them... but I'm speaking in generalized terms.

Well, like I said... when you see lights, mediums, heavies, and assaults forgoing other weapons so they can field 1-2 ppcs, it feels like the weapon might need another look at balance. After all, should a Jenner be fielding two "apex" weapons and brawling with them?

[Corvus Antaka]

tuffy963, on 16 August 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Well, like I said... when you see lights, mediums, heavies, and assaults forgoing other weapons so they can field 1-2 ppcs, it feels like the weapon might need another look at balance. After all, should a Jenner be fielding two "apex" weapons and brawling with them?

+1

i use primarily ERPPC.

the gun is still OP.

period.

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 16 August 2013 - 08:45 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

So players should not be allowed to mimic the several light builds that do carry a PPC or ERPPC?

[meteorol]

Donnie Silveray, on 16 August 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Pros
Easily performed changes, can be iterated on quickly.

Easily performed changes? Dude, this would require PGI to flip around 2 numbers. They would actually have to press the number keys on the keyboard. We have seen how long something like this will take on several occasions. My guess would be around 3-6 months.

[Deathlike]

I never took lights using PPCs/ERPPCs too seriously because their compromises to speed is too significant, making them easier targets.

However, the PPC meta has reached a point where the ERPPC Spider is a semi-common sighting, so... welcome to the new meta... same as the old meta.

[Flying Blind]

The.important part here is that ERPPC are still better close range weapons than the weapons designed for close range fighting.

There are more ways than heat to balance this and I feel that ppcs are very close to the right heat.

I would like to see PPC cool down set to 5 seconds and gauss to 6. That way they are still good sniper weapons but not so good at the close in fight.
I have a question in Tue current ATD if you want to vote. Page 5 I think. Can't link it with my phone

[DaZur]

tuffy963, on 16 August 2013 - 08:43 AM, said:

Well, like I said... when you see lights, mediums, heavies, and assaults forgoing other weapons so they can field 1-2 ppcs, it feels like the weapon might need another look at balance. After all, should a Jenner be fielding two "apex" weapons and brawling with them?

Misplaced blame...

It's not the PPC fault that the current configuration slot system allows middling mechs to mount them. PPCs are doing their job... reaching out and issuing front-loaded energy based damage.

They brawl with them because there is no deterrent otherwise... All PGI has to do is increase the cycle time and the PPC becomes a brawling liability... No other fudgery required.

[tuffy963]

DaZur, on 16 August 2013 - 08:55 AM, said:

Misplaced blame...

It's not the PPC fault that the current configuration slot system allows middling mechs to mount them. PPCs are doing their job... reaching out and issuing front-loaded energy based damage.

They brawl with them because there is no deterrent otherwise... All PGI has to do is increase the cycle time and the PPC becomes a brawling liability... No other fudgery required.

So we are in agreement... PPCs still need to be nerfed.

[DaZur]

tuffy963, on 16 August 2013 - 08:58 AM, said:

So we are in agreement... PPCs still need to be nerfed.

Partially...

What I suggest is a "soft nerf"... it doesn't screw with the ability of the weapon to be boated, does not screw with convergence, does not cap it with heat and does not reduce it's front-loaded damage potential... It just slows down the cycle time between shots to a point where attempting to brawl with them become a liability as there are better / more appropriate weapon alternatives to use inside brawl range (Mlas, AC/20 etc..).

[Agent 0 Fortune]

Joseph Mallan, on 16 August 2013 - 08:47 AM, said:

So players should not be allowed to mimic the several light builds that do carry a PPC or ERPPC?

Absolutely they should. Especially after the PPC and ER PPC have been balanced. In fact the whole goal is to make builds equally viable.
The problem we have now is that PPCs are too easy and too effective. The goal isn't to get rid of PPCs or even PPCs + Gauss, it is to make them balanced so some players take them, while other may opt for AC5s and Large Lasers (etc). For instance I still see 4x PPC mechs in the field they just aren't as popular as they used to be because there are other equally effective options available.

[SiriusBeef]

The answer is simple. Increase the minimum range from 90 to 120 and give the infighters a boost at extremely close range. Effectively narrowing the envelope of performance and making it much more difficult to brawl with. Do the same for LRMs . people will be much les likely to boat these weapons if there are serious drawbacks. As of yet there are none.

[Lightfoot]

You are right. No one can have fun with PPCs anymore. Too many players use them.

Maybe the alternate choices for energy slots all failed? I think that is probably more accurate.

The in-fighter's weapon of choice remains the Medium Laser. Medium Lasers are way more popular than PPCs, they need to be nerfed too by your standards.

Edited by Lightfoot, 16 August 2013 - 09:51 AM.

[SiriusBeef]

That might be true if the mlas had an effective range of 500m. Or did pin-point damage.

Edited by SiriusBeef, 16 August 2013 - 10:14 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

I'm firmly convinced that the use of ppc's is exacerbating the light hitbox issues. Seriously. In my spider I get killed by LPL more than anything else, almost never by ppc's. Too bad we can't pull statistics from the game, I think it would likely reveal that lasers kill more lights than anything else. Convergence is a bigger issue with PPCs - based on personal observations, if I run straight towards a 4 erppc stalker at full speed (152 or whatever) I am closing faster than its weapons can converge, also in order to converge properly he has to be able to hold his reticle on me - they'll alpha, one maybe two of the ppc'*****, and they're [ticked off] because I wasn't immediately killed. If you're rocking erppc's, try swapping them to lpl's and see how that fares against lights.

[Shadey99]

The problem is not the PPCs (Or Gauss), it's every other potential weapon. What does a LL, LPL, ER LL, ML, MPL, SL, or SPL give over a PPC? Maybe 'duration' for people with bad aim and that's it.

With no front loaded damage my own stats say 10.8 damage LPLs and 9 damage ER LL and normal LLs all do roughly 5 damage per hit. While ER PPC is a very solid 10 and PPCs are 9.2 (due to range either over or under).

This means I need 2x the LLs of any form as I do PPCs for the same damage. They could have insanely high heat or low heat caps and they would still be better weapons on a pure damage per hit basis.

MLs are almost always a better choice as they average about 2.5 damage per hit (so 2 ML = 1 LL) and SL actually need about 2x to match ML. So 1 LL = 2 ML = 4 SL. Testing grounds may show this to be different, but it also doesn't have moving targets.

ACs actually are far more comparable to PPCs in almost every way, but require ammo (and alot of ammo for 12v12), though except for AC2 and Gauss their range isn't so hot. AC2 per hit looks good, but requires way more time on target. The AC10 is nearly identical, but the range is to short.

And sadly the Gauss just doesn't fit in smaller machines well... I can fit one in my Cicada for instance, but I couldn't even carry 1 ton of ammo for it afterward...

Oh and btw, this is another difference from TT. Lasers did not hit multiple areas of enemy mechs or partially miss anymore than PPCs did. You would either do full damage to a certain location or miss with either weapon. A LL was almost as feared in TT as the PPC during this era and both compared well versus a AC10.

Edited by Shadey99, 16 August 2013 - 10:49 AM.

[Trauglodyte]

Until the PPC turns into a splash based weapon, you'll continue to see them in game. The problem isn't the weapon or even its range/heat efficiency but rather in the way it delivers damage. PPCs fire super heated ionized plasma (ie - lightning) in an extremely short burst. It isn't a beam of light or a solid projectile but rather a "ball", for lack of a better description, of material that is in a state between gas and liquid.