45 replies to this topic

[Artgathan]

I like a lot of the suggestions in the OP. However I think the best way to balance the clanners is to hit them where it hurts: in the heatsinks.

A mech with no arm / hand actuators starts out with 55 free slots. Add a Clan XL and they've got 45 slots. Endo + Ferro, 31 slots.

At most (carrying an XL 400 and no endo or ferro) a Clan Mech can carry 38 DHS (10 Engine, 28 External). Add ferro and endo they can carry 31 (if they fill every possible slot with DHS). That means with 1.4 heat dissipation / second / DHS, a Clan Mech made of nothing except heatsinks dissipates 6 heat a second (5 heat a second if it has endo + ferro). This looks impressive, but remember this theoretical mech is made of nothing except heatsinks. There are no weapons. No ammo.

In short, Clan mechs will fire one nasty alpha and then spend the rest of the match cooling down. They'll have great burst DPS, but won't be able to last in sustained engagements.

Trying to balance on cost has two problems:

• It doesn't actually balance the in-game performance of the weapon
  
• It just alienates new players who want to try out this whole "clan" thing

Zellbringen is also a bad way to balance. Players won't adhere to it, and penalizing them for not adhereing to it will lead to griefing. Oh, you got stuck challenging my Jenner in your Dire Wolf? Good luck trying to catch me! I'm going to hide on the other side of the map and the only way to reach me is by walking through 11 of my allies! Who you can't shoot!

Alternatively - hey look you're firing a laser at my friend Atlas. I know your stormcrow has challenged him to 1v1, but my Spider really needs to pass by right now to get away from this Firemoth. Looks like I'm running through your laser! Sorry about that; I guess you won't be getting anything this match now since you technically broke Zellbringen by hitting me by accident. Sucks! Maybe next time you'll earn something.

Similarly, numbers are a bad way to balance. 8v12? Killing one IS mech represents ~8% of their firepower. Killing one Clan mech represents 12.5% of their firepower. Bear in mind that focus fire will kill mechs at roughly the same rate (yes, the clanners have more guns but if they're all pointing at the same target the extra damage is wasted) because they have the same armor. Also, if you get a derpy clan pilot, you lose 12.5% of the team. Have a derpy IS pilot? No problem!

[James Warren]

I know this would upset a few people (basically the forums would be running as per usual) but I think the best course of action would be to balance Clan mechs 1 to 1 with Inner Sphere mechs. Pug matches would include teams of mixed Clan and IS mechs on both sides.

Keep Clan tech inside Clan mechs, unless Clan tech has its own benefits and drawbacks so that it increases the pool of equipment to choose from without invalidating anything we've got already.

The matchmaker shouldn't have to deal with yet another criteria; already we've got different ELOs, different weight classes, mechs that are vastly inferior/superior within said weight classes (which aren't currently accounted for at all). Soon we will have a split queue for 3rd person and 1st person only.

If you drop 12 IS vs 8 Clan, Clan players could end up waiting a long time for a game. I think its fair to infer from the number of people taking competitive heavy/assault mechs that the majority would flock to Clan tech if it ends up being in any way superior. Requiring proportionally more IS players will only exacerbate the problem. I do like this solution otherwise.

Perhaps special game modes for community warfare could have different balancing, although I think having two sets of stats for weapons and equipment would become very confusing. You'd still have the issue of (most) people wanting to play the side that gets a better K/D ratio. Not that K/D ratio counts for anything other than people's egos, but that's simply the nature of online games.

[Lightfoot]

Pirates get Clan tech, right?

[Strum Wealh]

Additionally, the OmniMech customization restrictions (described in more detail on pages 47-57 of TechManual) could make for a good way for balancing the OmniMechs (both those used by the Clans, and those eventually developed and deployed by the IS) against their non-OmniTech counterparts.

The short version of the canonical OmniMech restrictions is:

• An OmniMech's internal structure type (standard, endo-steel, etc) and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• An OmniMech's engine type (standard, XL, etc), rating (250, 300, etc), and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• An OmniMech's armor type (standard, FF, etc), amount (total tonnage/number of armor points), distribution (how much armor is where), and location/distribution of criticals cannot be changed.
  
• The locations and types for the cockpit and gyro may not be changed.
  
• The presence and location(s) of MASC and TSM cannot be changed; neither may be added to an OmniMech that wasn't originally built with it, and neither can be moved into a set of criticals other than what they originally occupied (for example, it may not be moved from the Left-Torso to the Right-Torso).
  
• The type of heat sinks (standard, DHS, etc) that are equipped on an OmniMech cannot be changed.
  
• Weapons and other pieces of equipment, additional Heat Sinks, Jump Jets, and other items may have been built-into the OmniMech as hard-wired "fixed items". Examples of such fixed components include the Flamer on the Adder/"Puma" (mounted in the Center-Torso), the Medium Lasers on the Avatar (mounted in the Center-Torso), and five of the Jump Jets on the Summoner/"Thor" (one mounted in the Center-Torso, the other four filling the legs). Such "fixed items" may not be either moved to another location on the OmniMech nor completely removed from said OmniMech.

The above restrictions are a large part of what keeps each OmniMech unique in spite of their relatively flexible weapon and pod-mounted equpment loads (e.g. why a Blood Asp might be used in place of a Kingfisher and vice versa, as well as why the former exists in the first place despite being predated by the latter by 172 years in-universe, and why OmniMechs of the same tonnage can exist without just being "X-ton gunbags with different skins").

Per the reasons above, PGI should lock down all of the hard-wired aspects of the OmniMechs (engine, structure, armor, fixed weapons/equipment, etc), as that is what determines the tonnage and distribution of pod space and allows for even same-tonnage OmniMechs (e.g. Fenris vs Shadow Cat - both 45-ton Clan OmniMechs) to remain substantially different.

Fenris, base OmniMech: 9.5 tons of pod space, ~30 open criticals
HD: x1 Endo-Steel, no open slots
CT: x1 Endo-Steel, x1 open slot
LT: XL Engine (x2 criticals), x1 Endo-Steel, x2 Ferro-Fibrous, x7 open slots
RT: XL Engine (x2 criticals), x1 Endo-Steel, x2 Ferro-Fibrous, x7 open slots
LA: x1 Ferro-Fibrous, x8-9 open slots [hands and LAAs are OmniPods and might be removed per configuration]
RA: x1 Ferro-Fibrous, x7-9 open slots [hands and LAAs are OmniPods and might be removed per configuration]
LL: x2 Endo-Steel, no open slots
RL: x2 Endo-Steel, no open slots

Shadow Cat, base OmniMech: 17 tons of pod space, ~22 open criticals
HD: x1 Endo-Steel, no open slots
CT: MASC (x2 criticals), no open slots
LT: XL Engine (x2 criticals), x1 Jump Jet, x1 Endo-Steel, x3 Ferro-Fibrous, x5 open slots
RT: XL Engine (x2 criticals), x1 Jump Jet, x1 Endo-Steel, x4 Ferro-Fibrous, x4 open slots
LA: x2 Endo-Steel, x7-8 open slots [hands and LAAs are OmniPods and might be removed per configuration]
RA: x2 Endo-Steel, x6-8 open slots [hands and LAAs are OmniPods and might be removed per configuration]
LL: x2 Jump Jets, no open slots
RL: x2 Jump Jets, no open slots

With that, there would be loadouts on one OmniMech of a given weight that generally could not be duplicated easily or exactly (if at all) on another OmniMech of the same weight.

In exchange, each open critical slot could be a non-type-specific hardpoint, or each configuration (that is, "variant") could be assigned a number of non-type-specific hardpoints (based on its initial loadout).
This would allow PGI to implement multiple OmniMechs of the same weight while also keeping them relatively unique (so that there is a reason to take "OmniMech X" over "OmniMech Y" beyond "best geometry/hitboxes").

Thoughts?

[CyclonerM]

Strum Wealh, on 17 August 2013 - 04:47 PM, said:

Thoughts?

The best way to balance Clan Tech.
But also 10vs12 (2 Stars vs 3 Lances) would help, it is another canon way to balance Omni-mechs which reflects the pre-battle bidding and the general situation of reinforcements.. I would like to see both of these solutions.

[Alex Warden]

i still think that clanmechs will be way more balanced from start than most people fear. the stock clanmechs are not much better than our overtuned IS massdestruction MWO mechs... so if clanmechs will be ONLY customizable within the omni-modulary-system and nothing else, they should almost be fine and need minor tweeking that has to be tested in a live environment first.

the only true problem i can see are CLRM, since (might) work like ssrm 5-20 with over 1km maxrange in MWO´s current LRM system.
but it´s a completely different topic,that i think the entire LRM system needs a serious overhaul. a few weapons will also need some tweaks and traits, but that has not much to do with number of mechs in a battle.

@OP specially: i don´t like your idea of making them less agile... one simple reason is, that clanmechs are OVERALL more modern machines with modernized systems and so on. making them less mobile and agile would take that feel away from them.