49 replies to this topic

[Ulric Kerenski]

It is true that the community is at times quite hostile to the developers, but one has to understand that it certainly did not start off hostile. The problem with PGI is that they have almost certainly killed off whatever goodwill they may have started with and alienated a good deal of their paying players in the process. It's fair to say that the lack of foresight regarding the game design, balances and so on has played a large part - the constant and often drastic changes to gameplay and user expectations has certainly not helped. But, when you add the fact that MWO has one of the worst new player experiences of any online game at the moment, and has become even more grindy since it started, and you have a recipe for disaster. What really kills the experience so far is that the devs have done very little to reward longtime players or at least allay their concerns about the game and the direction it has taken since launch. While they are most certainly wary of the community, and perhaps this is why they are so reluctant to respond with some encouraging changes, surely they must realize that this situation is almost entirely of their own doing.
The recent issues such as the C-Bill nerf are welcomed by some players, but these tend to be the hardcore players who have committed too much time and effort to playing this game, or lack the resources to drop it in favor of alternatives. Other players will simply go on to play other games where they feel the direction to be more interesting and sustainable. This could all have been resolved had they planned ahead a little bit and had issues such as the gameplay balances, game modes etc. all advanced a bit before beginning open beta. The long open Beta may have helped bring in a fair bit of income, but the player base lost to other games will almost certainly see a good many permanent losses, which is sad.

At the moment, for many founders, the general consensus is that the game's direction has gone far away from expectation - and not in a good way. Add to this the poor communication and poor management of expectations and the situation looks pretty bad from their perspective. New players already have a pretty poor experience and the recent changes to C-Bill earnings are only making it worse - the game is already pretty grindy and monotonous - at best, MWO can be regarded as Counterstrike with Mechs, certainly because the matches almost always devolve into the gameplay. It's less simulation than it is action game, which is what most of the Hardcore Mechwarrior afficionados were looking to avoid. Anyone who has played earlier iterations of the Mechwarrior series would recall that missions would last more than 10 minutes certainly, often up to an hour or more with deep objectives and a great sense of variety and immersion. MWO can seemingly never provide this because the developers would certainly feel that the return to them in terms of real money spent is going to be very slow in such a format? Ultimately, the format they have chosen to focus on cribs a lot from World of Tanks, but in doing so, this has become too much of a copycat game and lost too much of it's sense of immersion and expansiveness that it could otherwise have banked on. Anyone who read the early promotional materials and articles in magazines such as PC Gamer would almost certainly have felt a bit disheartened with the present state of the game and it's direction - certainly, the PC Gamer article made me feel a lot more optimistic about the game than I probably should have felt, because it seemed that there was a lot of promise in this development, but under all the hero mechs and new maps, most players would probably agree that they game has actually not evolved very much, if anything, many would feel someone let down by early promises of what MWO would turn out to be.

I've more or less stopped playing MWO in favor of other games and am looking forward to games like Star Citizen, War Thunder and Battlefield 4. The real threat to MWO is the fact that other games have handled their user base in a respectful and consistent manner - not just in terms of responses, but also in terms of the game changes. The lesson I hope they learn before the game becomes almost exclusively populated by only the most diehard players and those who cannot find or fund other alternatives is that they need to refocus on developing the game rather than trying to sell off in-game assets in a game that is clearly far from where it needs to be in order to be "sticky".

For players, I think the lesson here would be not to over-commit both time and money until you are sure that the development team can show consistent and sound development directions and effective communication so as to manage expectations properly and avoid false or misleading advertisements and promises. While I can understand the sentiments of the true die-hard Battletech fans, I also believe that patience and optimism have a limit and that sometimes, it is necessary to take a break, step back and take an objective look at the state of the product that you are consuming and supporting. If you feel that the direction is fine and that the developers are taking it in the right way, by all means continue to invest your time and resources in it. However, if you feel that there are too many serious issues with the developers approach to developing the product or that you have too many gnawing concerns, you need to be able to resist the money-grab attempts by developers and provide them with feedback so they will know that something serious needs to be done so that your investment will not come to naught in the long run.

If I lament one thing about my experience in MWO, it is that early on as a founder, when I was also very optimistic and has some goodwill towards the devs (which I felt was reciprocated initially), I was more than happy to pay for the game and promote it to friends and so on. Since then, I've felt extremely letdown by the game's development and also somewhat embarrassed because my recommendation turned out to be a rather poor one. There is a largely unhappy community and I honestly do not think that this situation will improve anytime soon. For now, I am happily playing other games and simply take this as a lesson not to expect too much from a developer, no matter how beloved the franchise is.

Some key points I feel PGI need to address before the game really dies:
1. Gameplay Balances - Be more consistent and measured with gameplay balances, implementing arbitrary and confusing rules simply muddy up the gameplay experience
2. Start generating goodwill again - instead of initiatives that a clearly cash-grabs, generate good will with things that don't require players to come out with money. You need to stop looking at everything as an opportunity to make money in other words.
3. Improve your new player experience - Improving the new player experience needs to come up higher on the list of priorities, recent additions like the XP bonus etc help, but they don't really help the overall new player experience much. Also, while it is nice to see them taking a page from games like LoL, I think more original and innovative approaches might be necessary to save the game.
4. Deliver on promises and make sure gameplay is more expansive - A lot was promised in early promotional materials and so on. The game as it is is stale to all but those who can tolerate the most extreme levels of grinding and repetitive play. There needs to be more variety and sense of immersion and exploration in the game and its dynamics.
5. Focus on the BIG picture - The current focus seems to be all on the small things like getting new mechs, weapon balances etc. out While I understand that the former is the primary source of income, while the latter keeps the income going, the big picture has clearly been neglected. See the above point.

What drew many long time Mechwarrior fans to MWO was the idea of the new franchise. But aside from the Mechs, this game has very little to do with the games that drew them to MWO in the first place. Make the game more expansive and interesting soon before they are all gone for good.

As for those who a currently very frustrated with the game, take a break, play something else and don't get too stuck to move on. It will be better for you and for the game in the long run, there's too much hostility and detail picking in the forums and community at the moment.

Edited by Ulric Kerenski, 16 August 2013 - 11:44 PM.

[Donkehote]

Very good post. I would add that the game has gone backwards in some aspects. Collision was a nice feature, and meant lights had to be wary and watch where they were going, or risk falling over and ending up an easy kill. A second feature that has gone backwards is the damage models. in closed beta the damage models were gorgeous with lasers making sections of mechs glow with heat, and real looking damage on the surface of the mechs. Now it just looks like someone took a bunch of bullet marks from goldeneye on the N64 and plastered them wherever you do damage. As you said, the game has not evolved much, and many things published have been left by the wayside or have been delayed.

I too have taken a break from the game, and I sincerely hope that things will improve before launch, although im not optimistic that they will.

Ulric Kerenski, on 16 August 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

Some key points I feel PGI need to address before the game really dies:
1. Gameplay Balances - Be more consistent and measured with gameplay balances, implementing arbitrary and confusing rules simply muddy up the gameplay experience
2. Start generating goodwill again - instead of initiatives that a clearly cash-grabs, generate good will with things that don't require players to come out with money. You need to stop looking at everything as an opportunity to make money in other words.
3. Improve your new player experience - Improving the new player experience needs to come up higher on the list of priorities, recent additions like the XP bonus etc help, but they don't really help the overall new player experience much. Also, while it is nice to see them taking a page from games like LoL, I think more original and innovative approaches might be necessary to save the game.
4. Deliver on promises and make sure gameplay is more expansive - A lot was promised in early promotional materials and so on. The game as it is is stale to all but those who can tolerate the most extreme levels of grinding and repetitive play. There needs to be more variety and sense of immersion and exploration in the game and its dynamics.
5. Focus on the BIG picture - The current focus seems to be all on the small things like getting new mechs, weapon balances etc. out While I understand that the former is the primary source of income, while the latter keeps the income going, the big picture has clearly been neglected. See the above point.

These points are excellent.

Edited by Donkehote, 17 August 2013 - 01:03 AM.

[PlzDie]

Very good post I agree with all the points you listed.

But what frustrates me the most about MWO is the total lack of communication from the developers to their community. If they want to change stuff like the recent c-bill changes fine, but at least have the decency to communicate the changes and the reasoning behind it.

I know they had a one line notification in the patch notes but the way it was put it could be interpreted as an increase or decrease, it did not say much.

IMO if there was good communication between the developers and the community there would not have been as much hostility.

Edited by Duppie1974, 17 August 2013 - 02:02 AM.

[Kaptain]

First, I love this game. I own a Legendary Founders Package and just purchased the Overlord Phoenix Package.

I agree the new player experience, especially with the new grind, is not fun for new players. I have 4 friends that are founders and they all love the game... every new player I show it to gets bored or frustrated with the grind and lack of information.

I think the balance is on a good track but I do find it frustrating when old problems/balance issues that have already been addressed and corrected find there way into new patches.

[Rasc4l]

A very good post. I joined late last year and it's been an interesting rollercoaster after that. Currently, I see a gap in the community. A lot of people, mostly founders, feel like you. I'm not a founder but I'm slowly going into the frustrated direction although the negative slope isn't that high as in the spring. However, I've seen many new players experience the game extremely positively in the servers saying how cool it is etc. This made me think that yes, nowadays if you come to the game anew, it is actually quite cool because you're just enjoying what you have without the emotional disappointment baggage PGI has produced for many players. It would be interesting to know what is the average "halflife" of an MWO player i.e. going from "excited" to "disappointed" to "quitting". After ~8 months, I'm between the excited and disappointed with a slightly negative slope.

Ulric Kerenski, on 16 August 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

Some key points I feel PGI need to address before the game really dies:
1. Gameplay Balances - Be more consistent and measured with gameplay balances, implementing arbitrary and confusing rules simply muddy up the gameplay experience

This has been the biggest grievance. Personally, I have had great difficulty in understanding why it takes months to change a couple of numbers. I first thought that they just gather data to make sure that statistics really show that "it's really the thing to do". But then I saw a video of 8 PGI guys dropping. Then I understood. They really don't know how to play their game. After the initial surprise, I realized that they work to do the game and don't have time to play it extensively. Well this again just brings the point of having expert players consult the developer team like I think #savemwo is trying and what has now been suggested in AskDevs45 with many likes.

So in general, weapon balance is at it's best but just wrap things up by implementing Bishop's LBX10 canister fix to have the long range weapon actually have a long range etc.

Ulric Kerenski, on 16 August 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

2. Start generating goodwill again - instead of initiatives that a clearly cash-grabs, generate good will with things that don't require players to come out with money. You need to stop looking at everything as an opportunity to make money in other words.

This would be needed. A nice gesture was the phoenix paint thing.

Ulric Kerenski, on 16 August 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

3. Improve your new player experience - Improving the new player experience needs to come up higher on the list of priorities, recent additions like the XP bonus etc help, but they don't really help the overall new player experience much. Also, while it is nice to see them taking a page from games like LoL, I think more original and innovative approaches might be necessary to save the game.

I'm quite curious of their tutorial. I hope it's not like here:

Ulric Kerenski, on 16 August 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

4. Deliver on promises and make sure gameplay is more expansive - A lot was promised in early promotional materials and so on. The game as it is is stale to all but those who can tolerate the most extreme levels of grinding and repetitive play. There needs to be more variety and sense of immersion and exploration in the game and its dynamics.

Another thing that surprises me is that they just haven't gotten around to having more game modes. Several "doable-in-a-day" fixes have been suggested in the forums, which would almost double the content. Sandstorms to Tourmaline, spawn points randomly also in other points instead of just sigma/gamma. Asymmetric base-assault could've been made simply by removing the other base and adding a couple of medium laser turrets to the base that the other team tries to assault and other defend.

Ulric Kerenski, on 16 August 2013 - 11:43 PM, said:

5. Focus on the BIG picture - The current focus seems to be all on the small things like getting new mechs, weapon balances etc. out While I understand that the former is the primary source of income, while the latter keeps the income going, the big picture has clearly been neglected. See the above point.

We've really been kept in the dark about the big picture and that worries me. I really hope CW phase 1 isn't just another stat in the second screen after a match. "You have received 147 loyalty points for FRR. There would've been 160 if you had premium."

[Vermaxx]

I support this thread, and will not be purchasing anything until the game improves. Doubly so now that base per-mission-pay rewards are lowered, while XP is boosted. This largely eliminates the need for premium time purchases by established players, and savvy new players will also see it has limited value.

I bought Sarah's mech for Sarah and her family. I will not buy things from PGI until this game is worth money. I put my 60 dollar founder contribution in, and yeah I've gotten 60 dollars worth out of the game. But even my hardcore "Mechwarrior is the best game series ever, PGI must have reasons for everything they do, it's not that bad Vermaxx stop whining" friend almost never plays. People stopped making time for MWO in their life schedules.

Like you said, the game devolves into Counterstrike in robots. This game has zero depth, and CW isn't going to be a magical fix. After all the galactic bells and whistles are set aside, the game you drop into will still be 'shoot people til you win.' The game has a great Mechwarrior veneer but little Mechwarrior flavor. It's a korean grind game set in the BT universe.

I think a lot of us looked at MWO with rose colored glasses and ignored common sense. This isn't a retail game that HAS to sell well, and KEEP SELLING through expansions to stay afloat. It's a F2P title, that thrives off micro purchases and constant turnover. I think they've got the turnover down, and probably even a large enough stable revenue stream. Beyond that, I really doubt CW is going to make this game suddenly top tier.

[HarmAssassin]

Excellent post, whole-heatedly agree... in fact, despite being a Battletech/Mechwarrior gamer since it was first published - I uninstalled this game this morning.

I'm done.

This game had so much potential, and they blew it. All they had to do was take canon stats, tweak armor to account for mouse aiming and ... done. 30 years of game balancing had already been done for them, and instead they kept going back on their promises and continually push the game farther and farther from sim to "Call of Duty with Robots".

Well, as I said, I'm done. This is my last post, so don't even bother replying to me personally or trying to send pm's.

Maybe in a few years another studio will try their hand at Mechwarrior - certainly can't be any worse.

cya

[C E Dwyer]

Good post, though I don't think war thunder is a very good example, unless you like russian aircraft, the flight models are awfull.

actually all I've seen of star citizen is a few cozy little fireside chats , about how I want this and that, and how i'm going to do this, and a few very controlled streams..be intresting to see if it does become this 'greatest of space games, or if it bombs..I suspect it'll bomb, its a small developer group..history repeating ?



I do know that mechwarrior tactics, (makes MWO seem god like)has become the very last time I'll kickstart any software developement, from now on I touch nothing until its on release.

I've invested to much and like the idea of Battletech to much to walk away, but the amount of cash I spend is going to spin into decline unless they stop bending over backwards to afew of their select fans, playing on free's , and start comunicating with the paying customers.

[StandingCow]

/agree.

I and many other legendary founders (also overlords) have gotten sick of how the game has been handled. Mostly the lack of communication from the Devs. What I have seen from them is not what I expect from a developer that is confident in their product... many of us feel we are watching the game we love and want to do well, go into a downward spiral.

When you hear a member of your unit that has spent over 700 dollars into the game say they are not spending anymore and have almost stopped playing the game (only do unit practices) ... you know things are going badly.

Just look at the amount of signatures on the #savemwo letter... over 1,100, and many more if you include people that signed on behalf of units.

Edited by StandingCow, 17 August 2013 - 07:21 AM.

[Anais Opal]

Snippet of a conversation I was having with the senior GM Reppu.

'Hello GlycerineOxide,
Sorry to hear you're not enjoying the game anymore. Unfortunately it's impossible to satisfy everyone, even though we'll still try. I for one am not worried about the future of MWO and I don't have any more information than the players have on what the future holds for the game itself.'

My reply.

'
With all due respect Reppu, you're paid to have faith in MWO's future but as evidenced by the THOUSANDS of players that showed up at both #saveMWO meetings. The greater majority of the community do not share your faith.

MechWarrior Online could be something very special, very special indeed. The MechWarrior franchise has a HUGE loyal following spread over 10 years of the games and tabletop and its potential is limitless, if community warfare follows along the lines of Planetside 2 it could be absolutely amazing. Unfortunately, PGI do not have the resources, human, technological and financial to achieve such a thing not to mention some people making very, very poor choices in terms of weapon balance etc etc.

If I wanted to play a first person shooter with stompy robots, I'd go and play Hawken, but I don't, I want to play in an immersive BattleTech universe that follows a timeline, that has a story and has historical events in that story I can participate in. Even just having Solaris 7 would mix things up a bit. Sorry, but I and many others don't think PGI has the chops for it. Too small a studio for too huge a franchise.'

Two key points I raised here.

Unfortunately, PGI do not have the resources, human, technological and financial to achieve such a thing

and

Too small a studio for too huge a franchise.

Edited by GlycerineOxide, 17 August 2013 - 11:18 AM.

[Gremlich Johns]

I would like to think that the issue with MW:O is NOT the developers, but in the management that is telling them to make more revenue by putting out the new X, Y, and Z shiny objects. I give it a year and then it will go fallow.

The MW:LL crew, with no budget, managed to put out a superior product using the Crytek 2 engine. PGI could have taken that product, employed all of those guys, and put out something that might have been epic. And it already has Clan tech and a combined arms aspect.

[DeaconW]

Vermaxx, on 17 August 2013 - 03:13 AM, said:

I think a lot of us looked at MWO with rose colored glasses and ignored common sense.

Very true for me...

[WonderSparks]

For lack of anything more thoughtful to say (I'm far too tired to come up with any creative responses), I agree with the original post on so many levels.

And after reading that, I wish I had thought more thoroughly about Project Phoenix instead of just outright buying the Overlord package, because if this game does end up going belly-up... I'm not going to be very happy about that money. >w>

[Donkehote]

Im re posting this directly from my question on ATD 45.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__2659505

This post from Paul back in October 2012 says, and i quote
"We would like to let you all know that we DO listen and DO carefully follow the forums, Facebook, Tweets, PMs and support tickets. We have a team of committed staff whose entire job is to tell us these things."
Link http://mwomercs.com/...rns-oct-122012/

With a team working to provide feedback from the community, why does PGI continue to completely ignore community complaints/issues, when a simple command chair post or question answer in ATD would calm a lot of angry/distressed community members?

I understand that the vocal people on the forums are sometimes out to cause trouble, but i continually see places where a 2 or 3 sentence post early on in a thread would basically end the thread completely, helping calm the people most offended by a problem.

Thanks

I agree on the communication front, as many other people have stated. Its about time they stopped putting stuff in the game without telling us more clearly. Or if they do forget to tell us, let us know in a timely manner if the thing players are encountering is a bug or intended.

[Exilicus]

The new player experience without a doubt is the single greatest problem MWO faces, and PGI continues to make it WORSE without any real explanation. The Cbill nerf, the heat changes etc are all unnecessary changes that have done nothing but make the game over-complicated and hopeless feeling for new players, simply no explanation for the direction this game has taken, improving the new player experience should be PRIORITY 1 for PGI and its clearly the opposite.

[RoboticRooster]

On the subject of new user experience. Last night I played a few matches with a guy new to the game. He had come from the days of mechwarrior 3, and had just heard of the existence of MWO. After I played a couple matches with him and a couple of other vets, he became less and less enthusiastic. He hated the grind, hated the incredibly complicated ghost heat system, Hated the TERRIBLE Trial mechs, and the fact that he had to grind through 25+,matches before he could buy a single mech to customize. After my group had played about 8 or so matches, he left, saying thanks for helping him out but he really didn't enjoy the game.

Which makes me very sad.

[Donkehote]

RoboticRooster, on 18 August 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

On the subject of new user experience. Last night I played a few matches with a guy new to the game. He had come from the days of mechwarrior 3, and had just heard of the existence of MWO. After I played a couple matches with him and a couple of other vets, he became less and less enthusiastic. He hated the grind, hated the incredibly complicated ghost heat system, Hated the TERRIBLE Trial mechs, and the fact that he had to grind through 25+,matches before he could buy a single mech to customize. After my group had played about 8 or so matches, he left, saying thanks for helping him out but he really didn't enjoy the game.

Which makes me very sad.

Ive seen this with a few people as well. Its just not right.

[DeaconW]

RoboticRooster, on 18 August 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

On the subject of new user experience. Last night I played a few matches with a guy new to the game. He had come from the days of mechwarrior 3, and had just heard of the existence of MWO. After I played a couple matches with him and a couple of other vets, he became less and less enthusiastic. He hated the grind, hated the incredibly complicated ghost heat system, Hated the TERRIBLE Trial mechs, and the fact that he had to grind through 25+,matches before he could buy a single mech to customize. After my group had played about 8 or so matches, he left, saying thanks for helping him out but he really didn't enjoy the game.

Which makes me very sad.

Just reading your post makes me sad, too.

[Asmosis]

agree with some of the stuff, disagree with a lot of it since its complaining about things that are getting released in a few weeks time.

Beta ends and game launches in a months time, most of that could have waited till then (if it still applies).

Also dont get why people continue to complain about nothing being done/no updates when theres generally pretty clear development plans in the updates. Do you want PGI to simply repost verbatum the same thing every 3 days just to reassure you they havent forgotten about it? because thats what a lot of the rants seem like.

[RoboticRooster]

DeaconW, on 18 August 2013 - 04:33 PM, said:

Just reading your post makes me sad, too.

Whats really sad is that this isn't some rare fringe case, this happens to an enormous number of people who pick up MWO for the first time. It's why the 1 million accounts created milestone doesn't really mean anything. So many potential players pick the game up, see its a massive grind, quit. It's even worse now that cbills have been nerfed.

I was actually ready to quit after the same short period of time when I started, but I found a merc company and that kept me playing. Simply having a long grind is not enough to snare new players, or keep old players interested.