31 replies to this topic

[wallop]

Hey guys,

ive been reading thru the forums for a bit and ive noticed that alot of people seem to talk about medium mechs, but i never really see that many in battle.

i play mostly pick up groups so this could be why. But seriously, the med mechs are awesome

i play a Centurian C9-A and love it. the play style is perfect for me. People are saying that when the weight limits come in we might see a few more. I think this'd be great and could see the battle tactics changing a bit.

what do you reckon guys?

[Shadey99]

Well since I PUG when I have the time to play, rather than commenting in the forums, I see lots of Mediums just this morning I saw Cicadas, Blackjacks, Hunchies, and Centurions. So it's not like they are dead, however they do have some issues which keep them from alot of group play...

Most, the Cicada is the exception, are not all that fast compared to many Heavies. So the end up much slower than the speed demon lights and not far enough above the heavies above them.

Mediums have tradeoffs... You can run fairly heavy weapons loads, but not the heatsinks to go with them or lower your weapons load and gain some heatsinks, but then your load looks more like many a light.

Combined with the speed issue is their lack of armor... A heavy can often take another 1/3rd or 1/2 the damage a medium can.

Size is the last issue, many are not that much shorter than heavies and at least twice the size of lights... So they present much bigger targets than their speed/armor can take.

Tonnage limits may help bring mediums into more common use in group games, however I'm uncertain... Without tonnage limits or some other method of limiting heavier mechs the heavier ones and the lighter ones look better than mediums...

[Wintersdark]

Yup. The few mediums you see are the Blackjack and Cicada (jump jets and speed) as they're basically upgunned lights, or Centurions because they are by a huge margin the most resilient mechs short of assaults. Otherwise, mediums tend to fail for the reasons Shadey noted. They're big, they're slow (same speed as most Heavies, slower than the Dragons and Quickdraws), and they have thin armor. Big+slow+weak armor=torn apart by assaults.

Now, when you pilot a Medium, you'll generally see a medium on the opposing team, so you're not "gimping" your team. However, many people get frustrated piloting Mediums where you're just not able to really stand up to Heavies and many assaults - not fast enough to stay behind them, too big and fragile to take hits. It's not like you can just elect to only fight the opposing Medium after all.

Tonnage limits will make a huge difference, but until then I don't see Mediums being very common at all. Why take a Hunchback/Trebuchet/Kitaro when you could take a Quickdraw, for example, with the same loadout, more speed, and more armor?

[Angel of Annihilation]

I see mediums quite often but I understand why they aren't as popular. In fact I don't even own one.

The biggest issue I see is that the current mediums just don't really offer anything you can't get better in another class.

For example, my QDs can carry more firepower, run just as fast and have JJs with more armor. Another example, my Jenners are just as fast, carry just as much firepower, are just as well armored and are half the size of a Cicada.

For the last few months I have been contemplating getting a medium but no matter how I build them they never match up. They always fall short in one area or another.

However, I do have hope where the new mediums on the horizon are concerned. The Kintaro looks like it could be a good mech once they fix the CT, a fix that should be coming in early Sept. The Shadow Hawk has alot of potential as well. Also they will have the Wolverine and Griffin in at some point, both of which look like good mechs.

Lastly, I want to be clear about something. Running a medium in a match doesn't gimp your team or anything like that because mediums can easily put out outstanding numbers. They do take more skill to do so however so you have to overcome the learning curve. Rather the issue for me at least is that there are just so many better mechs to invest C-bills into.

[Bishop Steiner]

I love my Mediums, but do drive my Jagermechs more. And of course, they don't benefit from the borked HitBox invulnerability of the Lights.

That said, while I started Closed Beta as part of the Centy Legion, and one of the greatest proponents of the YLW, I drive my "outgunned and overmatched" HBK-4G "Can-Opener" most. And I have yet to find the Cataphract I can't outduel in it do to it's very overlooked range of torso twist. In fact, I can usually take on ANY heavy, with the exception of the occasional AC40 Jager. It is hard to compete with TWO Ac20s. With them, I jsut have to use my better mobilty and try to use cover to sneak in and take one torso off first. And that is another saving factor. Almost all the really potent Heavies use an XL to be viable. I lose a torso, I can still fight. (Though I do prefer to NOT lose my Hunch).

Funny enough... I almost never do on this mech. Where as all my other Hunchies it pops real fast.

Also, once the new Medium Agility bonuses are unlocked, I bet we will see a LOT more use. Can't wait for them and weight limits. Then we will separate the real mean from the boys in Mech warfare.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 18 August 2013 - 10:27 AM.

[Shadey99]

Viktor Drake, on 18 August 2013 - 10:06 AM, said:

Another example, my Jenners are just as fast, carry just as much firepower, are just as well armored and are half the size of a Cicada.

Actually a Cicada can be fairly different or even carry more firepower than a Jenner if it's built right, such as a the CDA-2A. Not to mention the 3C and 3M both have ballistics which the Jenners do not. The 3M also has ECM which the Jenners don't.

Of course only the X-5 has missile hard points and the Jenners get JJs which no Cicada has, but it's not fair to say the Cicada cannot do it's own thing.

[wallop]

well i tend to find that my mech isnt really for going head to head with, i tend to wait a bit and see how the fight plays out and then help out the guys taking down the bigger mechs or try to bait some of the enemy into chasing me so they can be ambushed.

they do seem to have alot more drawbacks than they do pro's but i cant help but find it fun when your having to leg twisting and laughing like a little girl.

my average damage in a game is between 300-500. i guess thats ok

[Lord Perversor]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 August 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

I love my Mediums, but do drive my Jagermechs more. And of course, they don't benefit from the borked HitBox invulnerability of the Lights.

That said, while I started Closed Beta as part of the Centy Legion, and one of the greatest proponents of the YLW, I drive my "outgunned and overmatched" HBK-4G "Can-Opener" most. And I have yet to find the Cataphract I can't outduel in it do to it's very overlooked range of torso twist. In fact, I can usually take on ANY heavy, with the exception of the occasional AC40 Jager. It is hard to compete with TWO Ac20s. With them, I jsut have to use my better mobilty and try to use cover to sneak in and take one torso off first. And that is another saving factor. Almost all the really potent Heavies use an XL to be viable. I lose a torso, I can still fight. (Though I do prefer to NOT lose my Hunch).

Funny enough... I almost never do on this mech. Where as all my other Hunchies it pops real fast.

Also, once the new Medium Agility bonuses are unlocked, I bet we will see a LOT more use. Can't wait for them and weight limits. Then we will separate the real mean from the boys in Mech warfare.

Hey Bishop drop 1x Hs and get FF put a 225 and still you got spare tonnage with moar speed and better dissipation rate ( i run mi G with just Ac/ 20 and 3x med lasers and yep mediums rock.

An important thing to notice it's mobility any med should be at 70-80 kph as common unless you run a very specific setup.

Also always think you are a wolf in a pack the more the better and always avoid hunting alone bigger prey unless they are already weakened.

[Bishop Steiner]

Lord Perversor, on 18 August 2013 - 05:07 PM, said:

Hey Bishop drop 1x Hs and get FF put a 225 and still you got spare tonnage with moar speed and better dissipation rate ( i run mi G with just Ac/ 20 and 3x med lasers and yep mediums rock.

An important thing to notice it's mobility any med should be at 70-80 kph as common unless you run a very specific setup.

Also always think you are a wolf in a pack the more the better and always avoid hunting alone bigger prey unless they are already weakened.

I've tried. Can't make it all fit. If I upgrade to the 225 and switch to ferro, I have the tonnage, but am completely out of critical slots.

[Lord Perversor]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 August 2013 - 07:14 PM, said:

I've tried. Can't make it all fit. If I upgrade to the 225 and switch to ferro, I have the tonnage, but am completely out of critical slots.

Damn true i forgot you carry those 2x MG and the ammo for them

[Bishop Steiner]

Lord Perversor, on 18 August 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

Damn true i forgot you carry those 2x MG and the ammo for them

yeah. Those MGs have massively increased the CanOpener's lethality, so they go NOWHERE, lol.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Shadey99, on 18 August 2013 - 10:53 AM, said:

Actually a Cicada can be fairly different or even carry more firepower than a Jenner if it's built right, such as a the CDA-2A. Not to mention the 3C and 3M both have ballistics which the Jenners do not. The 3M also has ECM which the Jenners don't.

Of course only the X-5 has missile hard points and the Jenners get JJs which no Cicada has, but it's not fair to say the Cicada cannot do it's own thing.

It can definately sort of do its own thing but...

Cicada

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...af15b611ba75b60

6 ML
330XL
147 kph
268 Armor
45% Cooling Efficiency

Jenner:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a2cab5860e1baae

6 MLs
300XL
152 kph
232 Armor
40% Cooling Efficiency
4 JJs

So basically when you compare the two, the Jenner has almost as much armor and is a bit faster at the expense of being a little hotter running. More importantly, the Jenner is less than half the size of the Cicada and is jump capable.

This is just one example but three of Cicada variants can be totally replaced by the Jenner which I feel are better due to the size and jumping abilities despite a few less armor.

However, yes some of the Cicada can mount Ballastics but by the time you mount a big engine in it to give it a bit of survivability, it don't have a while lot of free weight for any of the mid to large size ballastics. Also one variant does have ECM which a Jenner can't mount at all so I guess you could say, these TWO variants can't be replaced by a Jenner so your technically right that they do add some diversity to the mix.

Still I don't think Cicada's are in a really good place aside from maybe the ECM variant.

[xengk]

Just last night in a match, I saw a mech on the enemy team that made me confuse for several second.
Then I realized Im looking at the (assume) extincted Trebuchet.
It is a sight of beauty to see it rain LRM on my teammates, until I slaughter him and his A1 buddy with my BJ-1DC.
Hmmm~ McRibs is Back!

Mediums are making a come back since 12v12, as the battlefield ecology now have room for medium to fill the niche of fast flanker.

[Shadey99]

Viktor Drake, on 18 August 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

Cicada
330XL

This is about the worst possible engine for a Cicada as one can see from the chart in this thread: http://mwomercs.com/forums/topic/104703-the-cicadas-sweet-spot-for-speed/ . Which is due to the 1.5 ton jump in weight from 300 to 305 (15.5 to 17) and then a steady climb of .5 tons per rating increase in engine capacity.

Thankfully since MWO has a soft cap of 140 kph (and after that it lies to you) a 300 XL hitting 133 kph is plenty and very few mechs can pull away from you without a very very long time. So yes extreme high speed builds are left to the Jenner, harder hitting yet still fast builds are the domain of the Cicada.

As for ballistics... Well the AC2s and 5s are pretty much it in a Cicada, but builds like the Double Sniper CDA-3C or Rapid Sniper do ok using AC2s while still mounting backup weapons.

Also if your willing to run with the bulk of your team (Because it's at a classic medium speed) the Mini-Archer or Mini-Archer alt can be fun, best used on targets sans AMS though.

Edited by Shadey99, 19 August 2013 - 02:46 AM.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

Going with the fast(ish) medium flanker in my Founders 4G. It has enough range to make hanging back viable or even some sniping to start with. Like all mediums it just can't live with face to face combat but with speed tweak its fast enough to keep out of trouble most of the time.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4eb45b2e00452c3

It may not suit everyone but I like it, the arm mounted ERPPC with the extra movement range of the Hunchie is very useful for discouraging lights. The lack of minimum range is worth the extra heat with the lack of close range backup other than the AC10.

[Escef]

I PUG exclusively, and I see mediums here and there. Last drop I was in I saw a couple Cents and a Kintaro. Just this morning I've also seen Trebs and Hunchies. Probably the most common medium is the Cicada, which doesn't feel like a medium for most folks, probably because it plays so much like a light.

Edited by Escef, 19 August 2013 - 05:15 AM.

[William T Riker]

Mediums are awesome! Here's a solid, foolproof BJ-1. I think it does its job better than a wang.

BJ-1

Nothing like firing from inside the lava and not overheating.

[John MatriX82]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 August 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

I love my Mediums, but do drive my Jagermechs more. And of course, they don't benefit from the borked HitBox invulnerability of the Lights.

That said, while I started Closed Beta as part of the Centy Legion, and one of the greatest proponents of the YLW, I drive my "outgunned and overmatched" HBK-4G "Can-Opener" most. And I have yet to find the Cataphract I can't outduel in it do to it's very overlooked range of torso twist. In fact, I can usually take on ANY heavy, with the exception of the occasional AC40 Jager. It is hard to compete with TWO Ac20s. With them, I jsut have to use my better mobilty and try to use cover to sneak in and take one torso off first. And that is another saving factor. Almost all the really potent Heavies use an XL to be viable. I lose a torso, I can still fight. (Though I do prefer to NOT lose my Hunch).

Funny enough... I almost never do on this mech. Where as all my other Hunchies it pops real fast.

Also, once the new Medium Agility bonuses are unlocked, I bet we will see a LOT more use. Can't wait for them and weight limits. Then we will separate the real mean from the boys in Mech warfare.

Mate I'd go around with something like this HBK-4G it's faster and with more cooling than your own. Anyway a 4H with STD 250, 4ML AC 20 + 3tons FF and Endo is superior, it might run hotter but it definitely allows you to shoot from somewhat more afar and with much better maneuverability than your can opener.. up close that hunch won't last through the 4 ammo tons you bring, unfortunately.


That said, well, hunchies got the hunch, so with easy pinpointers that have 20-35 dmg and go shooting around it's extremely easy to get sided and then you're useless. Trebs are rather big, tall and the tendency is to go XL with them (if you go std then Hunchies or Cents can do the same stuff better), but the RT is rather big so again, going XL is somewhat suicidal at the same time, unless you don't have JJs like the 5J or 7M to do some light jumpsniping.

Kintaroes are all CT, maybe I'll pick up one and try it up after the declared patch of the 3rd Sept, until then they are useless.

Cicadas can be deadly, but mostly only the 2PPC/ERPPC is effective, if you take a 6ML 2A (which melts) then a JR7-F with 5 MLs does the same job with more speed and with a much thinner shape, so it all comes down to 3Ms with ECM, the said dual PPCs or dual LLs with some mls or smls.

I personally like Hunchies (I own 4P, 4SP and 4H), but it's rare I take them for a spin. It's easier to find me on a Cent "SplatA"; later on I kept only a TBT 5J (that's taking a lot of dust), Cicadas 2A and 3M. I've recently sold a TBT 5N, I was wondering whether to sell or not also my Cent AL, technically the 4SP can do anything it does maybe with less sturdiness but with better hardpoints.

I've skipped Blackjack's at all.. too borked the non 1X variants because they can't reach 250 rated engines, the 1X itself is rather limited in torso twist, lacks JJs and yet the thing it's still somewhat too wide to safely go XL.


Mediums have a big problem: cr4ploads of Assaults or heavies going around. You can't use them so well when you end up vs 8 to 10 assaults in the enemy team and you're a brawler medium.. they were more useful and more taken into consideration when building up competitive 8mans, but for now you need the guts to bring them at the high levels of play. I truly hope they'll quirk them up and I pray they'll add some weight limiting factors AND matchmaking. Otherwise they are shelved.

Edited by John MatriX82, 19 August 2013 - 05:57 AM.

[King Picollo]

The mediums just need a bit of a speed boost, they match the speed of the Heavies most of the time my hunchback is the same as my cataphract by default when really if they made them that little bit faster due to them being lighter they'd be a bit more even.

[John MatriX82]

King Picollo, on 19 August 2013 - 06:11 AM, said:

The mediums just need a bit of a speed boost, they match the speed of the Heavies most of the time my hunchback is the same as my cataphract by default when really if they made them that little bit faster due to them being lighter they'd be a bit more even.

HBKs (like cents did) might benefit for some larger engines, but mostly require STDs, so it will be hard to stuff into those more than a 270 and if the top rating isn't bigger (like 300 or more) it will be a "limited" quirk..