31 replies to this topic

[Jalik]

When I play my stalker I don't see that many mediums. When I play my hunchies, I see alot of them. odd
Mediums are not that easy to play I'd say. They can carry heavy weapons but you better be either fast or super careful. Or both. They have to fit to your play style or you'll have a hard time learning. I certainly had
However, I like my hunchies because if you play it right the enemy will target the heavies and assaults first. The clever medium hides and waites (or flanks) and ... boom. 'Boom' either means 'attacks the distracted assault from behind' or 'gets killed by one shot'. Whatever happens first

[MeiSooHaityu]

With the way the game is currently set up, the Medium chassis is a bit "Hard Mode".

I do like Mediums and I do have some good luck with my Hunchbacks (Hunch 4G = 1.3 KDR and 4P 1.6 KDR), but compared to the high alpha heavies and Assaults (My high damage alphas were getting be 2+ KDR) mediums have a hard time competing for people's mechbay space.

I am a poor team player because I would rather go with a lower KDR mech if I have more fun with it. I like my mediums because they are fast, still can have good firepower, and are generally ignored on the battlefield if you play conservative.

Most players are about maximum KDR, and a Medium just tends not to give you that.

[jper4]

like Bishop Steiner i have a lot of mediums but do have my 3 jagers as well they i play about as much. i play at off peak times (afternoons EST US) and i notice mediums tend to come in clumnps. i may be the only medium for a couple matches then have 4 in the third match. been seeing a lot more lights turning up of late though. at least in this time frame the 8v8 days of 15 heavy/assaults and 1 light/medium don;t apply anymore except on rare occasions.

as far as frequency goes seems to be
1) cents (as far as seeing them most often in a match)
2) hunchies- (not as common on a per match basis but if there are 3 or 4 mediums in a match 2-3 of them will be hunchies)
3) Blackjacks (will see one or two every other match- i actually play them most of my mediums save the hunchy 4sp)
4) cicada (seem to see either 0 or 2 but never more than 2)
5) kintaros (probably will increase as more start buying them)
6-9) no mediums
10) trebbies (they do exist right? may see the occasional lrm trbe not counting myself)

for me the mentality of a medium mech brawler (barring the light wannabes the cicada) is that you're the vulture or jackal or whatever scanvenger you prefer. never be first, never initiate the fight unless the other guy's hurting, find what's paying attention to the assaults and fire at will. anything still mostly intact avoid like the plague because they will usually outlast you. on the rare times i actually listen to myself it works great (but i often lack the patience to wait that long).

case in point- running a BJ 3 with 6ML on alpine friday. was up on the hills watching base for the traditional kappa line base rush and keeping a stalker company. enemy pushes. stalker starts firing on one of their atlas and a jenner sneaks up behind it- about 150m from where i was. jenner never saw me and i killed it with a few alphas- jenner didn;t move too much to stay on the stalker's rear armor. peeked over the ridge and saw a damaged atlas engaged and a phrat coming near- both with damage. finished off the atlas while it was worrying about the stalker and managed to finish off the phrat (it overheated lots) after the stalker died (thanks mr. stalker). only 3 of them left at this point, got base cap alert, ran to the base to stop the 1 there..um..2...ack all 3- while everyone else was either near their base or too slow to get back.

all three enemy mechs were already in various states of damage. one was killed while i was still about 400m away (lrm cat i think- was actually aiming at the quickdraw but it moved at the wrong time- never got a target id on it), quickdraw had lots of CT damage so i focused on him while the PPC cat was trying to blast me inside 90m (cause he wanted to stay on the base). managed to get the quickdraw and a friendly jenner finally made it back to harrass the cat while he was chasing me around. lucked out and got the killshot over the jenner. so 6 kills and just over 600dmg in the end (personal best kill total- really wanted a screen shot but didnt know about the fullscreen printscreen bug til yesterday). and following my usual tradition i think i died with under 100dmg the following match...

point being- while i'm sure some of them were newer players, i was able to take advantage of being ignored and previous damage by being a patient scavenger- which to me seems to be the best role a medium is suited for at this point. you're not a scout, you're not a tank, you're not an alpha of doomboat- so grab the scraps when you can and you'll be much happier in your medium (doesn;t apply for long range builds as much- though i don;t really play any long range mediums to be sure).

[HammerSwarm]

Mediums fail at everything. No but think about it they are designed to be inferior in every role.

Need more speed go light, need more weapons go assault, need more armor/speed/weapons go heavy.

The only thing mediums have is limited tonnage.and currently in the metagame there is no role for limited tonnage. I am a good medium pilot, I can do between 200-300 damage on average and in a good match I can easily do 700-100 in most mediums. I like my hunchback LRM boat, I like my Centurion AL with an ERPPC. But anything I can do in a medium at 50 tons is done better by a heavy at 60-75 tons, or an assaults at 80-100.

I hate running 12 mans with my clan because if you are dropping in a medium you fail your team like whoa. My blackjacks are next to useless because PGI has decided that tonnage is not as important as ELO. No two pilots are the same skill. But you're going to have a lot harder time balancing a 100 ton mech vs a 40-55 ton mech.

That's why you don't see mediums because the game doesn't care what mech you are in and there is no reason for a medium to exist in a metagame without tonnage limits.

[BillyM]

Life long medium pilot here, 1.5w/l, 2.2kdr, and 329dmg avg in a HBK4sp with most play during the SRM-useless phase.

In the beginning the economy promoted medium usage. The Hunchs and Cents were money making machines (as they were in lore), consistently, with or without premium time. That's gone and it's "more damage/assists, more money", which lends to being hard to hit (lights) or being able to survive the hits (heavies/mediums). Mediums need to be made financially viable again by way of a earnings multiplier. Since at this point we're all effectively mercenaries, lets put the financial focus back on the underused classes (mediums get a 1.3x, heavies a 0.9x, assaults a 0.8x earnings multiplier). This can exist until weight limitations can come into play.

Additionally, I'd love to see something done about group drops. I say we push a 1-of-each-class rule on 4-mans (a play style I frequent). It's disgusting seeing experienced folks getting matchmaker all twisted-up, digging up the newest or the worst to match their 4-man DDC-drops. Lets get a class balance.

--billyM

[Bishop Steiner]

John MatriX82, on 19 August 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

Mate I'd go around with something like this HBK-4G it's faster and with more cooling than your own. Anyway a 4H with STD 250, 4ML AC 20 + 3tons FF and Endo is superior, it might run hotter but it definitely allows you to shoot from somewhat more afar and with much better maneuverability than your can opener.. up close that hunch won't last through the 4 ammo tons you bring, unfortunately.


That said, well, hunchies got the hunch, so with easy pinpointers that have 20-35 dmg and go shooting around it's extremely easy to get sided and then you're useless. Trebs are rather big, tall and the tendency is to go XL with them (if you go std then Hunchies or Cents can do the same stuff better), but the RT is rather big so again, going XL is somewhat suicidal at the same time, unless you don't have JJs like the 5J or 7M to do some light jumpsniping.

Kintaroes are all CT, maybe I'll pick up one and try it up after the declared patch of the 3rd Sept, until then they are useless.

Cicadas can be deadly, but mostly only the 2PPC/ERPPC is effective, if you take a 6ML 2A (which melts) then a JR7-F with 5 MLs does the same job with more speed and with a much thinner shape, so it all comes down to 3Ms with ECM, the said dual PPCs or dual LLs with some mls or smls.

I personally like Hunchies (I own 4P, 4SP and 4H), but it's rare I take them for a spin. It's easier to find me on a Cent "SplatA"; later on I kept only a TBT 5J (that's taking a lot of dust), Cicadas 2A and 3M. I've recently sold a TBT 5N, I was wondering whether to sell or not also my Cent AL, technically the 4SP can do anything it does maybe with less sturdiness but with better hardpoints.

I've skipped Blackjack's at all.. too borked the non 1X variants because they can't reach 250 rated engines, the 1X itself is rather limited in torso twist, lacks JJs and yet the thing it's still somewhat too wide to safely go XL.


Mediums have a big problem: cr4ploads of Assaults or heavies going around. You can't use them so well when you end up vs 8 to 10 assaults in the enemy team and you're a brawler medium.. they were more useful and more taken into consideration when building up competitive 8mans, but for now you need the guts to bring them at the high levels of play. I truly hope they'll quirk them up and I pray they'll add some weight limiting factors AND matchmaking. Otherwise they are shelved.

Mate, I've run all those.

The H is a joke, because the heat ******* your RoF, and the extra 2 Mediums pop when your AC does. Have you run the build I listed? Causs unless you actually have run a few dozen matches in something, commenting on it is kinda silly. And I go by the one objective scale out there: RESULTS.

KDr doubled since going to this build. Damage increased by 150 pts per match average. And oddly enough, survival of my hunch? Also higher. I attribute that to the realization I want to get my MGs in range before opening up, so I do less mid range "sniping" and therefore exposing my hunch to the enemy, with this build.

And as I noted, I have out-dueled and out brawled literally every solo Cataphract, Hunchy, Jager, Awesome and Catapult I have faced with it. In fact, Jager and Phract pilots are it's meal of choice. Also, this build allows me a huge degree of freedom on the hot maps like Terra Therma, because heat really isn't an issue. And even if I AM running hot, the other mechs have to fear me because if they have ANY exposed internals, my MGs will still chew them off, whereas most of them can't fire back effectively for fear of heat.

Only map I really have in issue with is Alpine, for the obvious reasons, though if I drop with a group that actually uses the terrain and patience, I can do OK, but Terra Therma and River City are my preferred maps in this mech.

[Shakespeare]

Bishop Steiner, on 18 August 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

I love my Mediums, but do drive my Jagermechs more. And of course, they don't benefit from the borked HitBox invulnerability of the Lights.

That said, while I started Closed Beta as part of the Centy Legion, and one of the greatest proponents of the YLW, I drive my "outgunned and overmatched" HBK-4G "Can-Opener" most. And I have yet to find the Cataphract I can't outduel in it do to it's very overlooked range of torso twist. In fact, I can usually take on ANY heavy, with the exception of the occasional AC40 Jager. It is hard to compete with TWO Ac20s. With them, I jsut have to use my better mobilty and try to use cover to sneak in and take one torso off first. And that is another saving factor. Almost all the really potent Heavies use an XL to be viable. I lose a torso, I can still fight. (Though I do prefer to NOT lose my Hunch).

Funny enough... I almost never do on this mech. Where as all my other Hunchies it pops real fast.

Also, once the new Medium Agility bonuses are unlocked, I bet we will see a LOT more use. Can't wait for them and weight limits. Then we will separate the real mean from the boys in Mech warfare.

I've definitely been enjoying my STD 250 equipped-hunchbacks more lately. There's more fodder on both sides, and you basically 'lose' yourself in the brawl and pick off stragglers and lights. Clubbing a Jenner w/AC20 is very satisfying, as is killing something 1.5x your tonnage. Those XL engines will kill ya!

[John MatriX82]

Bishop Steiner, on 19 August 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

The H is a joke, because the heat ******* your RoF, and the extra 2 Mediums pop when your AC does. Have you run the build I listed? Causs unless you actually have run a few dozen matches in something, commenting on it is kinda silly. And I go by the one objective scale out there: RESULTS.

Chill down mate xD, everything pos out when your hunch goes, but in mine at least I have the mighty head laser that you didn't used.

That 4H can do 4 solid alphas before having overheating problems, then you either chain the mediums or dedicate to the AC 20 and you go around at 90 Kph which means being able to fade out once you run into heat problems. Your build "forces" you to stay engaged to truly pull out your DPSs something that's not necessary in the one I'm speaking of.

If you truly find your 4G comfortable (I find sub-250 engine hunchies too slow and sluggish), then I'd upgrade yours to something like this HBK-4G, the sml adds some little fluff to the MGs when you are close up and its tiny armor isn't much of an issue, that arm is gone nevertheless as soon as your hunch is gone.

CT AC 20 ammo should be extinguished by a long time before you might run into somebody triggering that one with a crit and you're a tad faster, benefitting also with torso twisting.

[Ngamok]

Viktor Drake, on 18 August 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:

It can definately sort of do its own thing but...

Cicada

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...af15b611ba75b60

6 ML
330XL
147 kph
268 Armor
45% Cooling Efficiency

Jenner:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...a2cab5860e1baae

6 MLs
300XL
152 kph
232 Armor
40% Cooling Efficiency
4 JJs

So basically when you compare the two, the Jenner has almost as much armor and is a bit faster at the expense of being a little hotter running. More importantly, the Jenner is less than half the size of the Cicada and is jump capable.

This is just one example but three of Cicada variants can be totally replaced by the Jenner which I feel are better due to the size and jumping abilities despite a few less armor.

However, yes some of the Cicada can mount Ballastics but by the time you mount a big engine in it to give it a bit of survivability, it don't have a while lot of free weight for any of the mid to large size ballastics. Also one variant does have ECM which a Jenner can't mount at all so I guess you could say, these TWO variants can't be replaced by a Jenner so your technically right that they do add some diversity to the mix.

Still I don't think Cicada's are in a really good place aside from maybe the ECM variant.

Pretty sure it's been pointed out that 140 KPH is the actual speed cap. I could be wrong. You can test it out by running next to a jenner at 152 something else at 140.

[Bishop Steiner]

John MatriX82, on 19 August 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

Chill down mate xD, everything pos out when your hunch goes, but in mine at least I have the mighty head laser that you didn't used.

That 4H can do 4 solid alphas before having overheating problems, then you either chain the mediums or dedicate to the AC 20 and you go around at 90 Kph which means being able to fade out once you run into heat problems. Your build "forces" you to stay engaged to truly pull out your DPSs something that's not necessary in the one I'm speaking of.

If you truly find your 4G comfortable (I find sub-250 engine hunchies too slow and sluggish), then I'd upgrade yours to something like this HBK-4G, the sml adds some little fluff to the MGs when you are close up and its tiny armor isn't much of an issue, that arm is gone nevertheless as soon as your hunch is gone.

CT AC 20 ammo should be extinguished by a long time before you might run into somebody triggering that one with a crit and you're a tad faster, benefitting also with torso twisting.

loses the simplicity.

One, I like my armor. Has kept my mech functional. 2, putting the lasers in your arrangement adds more heat, and complicates the triggers. Do you tie the medium in the head with the AC? Separate triggers? With the other lasers? How about the small? If they are out of Small laser range, that's more heat for no more damage every time you try to use your arm lasers.

Why does mine work? Simplicity in design. The lasers are in the arms, thus on the same reticle. 1 trigger. The AC/20 is mated to the MGs on another trigger (because honestly, who cares if you waste 2-3 rounds of MG ammo?, but having that trigger down nonstop in a brawl is very nice), And then JUST the MGs on the scroll wheel, for when I want to conserve AC ammo, or heat.

Again, since I nearly never lose the hunch, I tend not to find losing the arm a big deal. In fact, I have lost that right arm a LOT more than my Right Torso. (twisty twisty). I am decently mobile, well armed with low heat and simplicity of control. Have you run your smurfy build? I find too often the paper gains on Smurfy do NOT translate to the IRL gains of a good design. They give you a nice starting point to practice a build, and once you have one you like, a great way to keep track of it. But too many builds proposed on here are SmurfyWarriors ONLY, and have NOT been tested to see if they perform up to snuff.

Also I find the 3.5 kph higher speed of your design to be negligible at best, and notice no real world advantage to torso twist speed. As for your small laser, it drops my heat efficiency by 9%, from 54% to 45%. Not an adequate trade-off to my mind. A better version of yours (for me) would be THIS
HBK-4G
which gives me the small and medium still if I lose my hunch. It also allows me to add the small laser to the scroll wheel with my MGs, allowing for better weapon control and placing it on a separate fire channel from the arm mounted mediums, so that if something is out of my arc of fire for the torso weapons, I don't need to fire i with it. The loss of leg armor is negligible, because in practice, NO ONE legs HBKs, always instead tempted to go for that luscious hunch. Lastly, it's a little more damage added.

When running it though, i don't find it worth the heat. The other benefits are situational at best. I find it best not to mess with success.



Perhaps you have, and it works for you. On the other hand, my build, the way I have run it works PERFECTLY for me, and all my clanmates who have tried it agree.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 19 August 2013 - 12:35 PM.

[John MatriX82]

Meh I often use all the 6 weapons groups (5 mouse buttons and and Q key on the keyboard that i use for srms/missiles) so I don't frankly care about trigger complications. Each arm is tied the related left/right mouse click, primary weapon goes on mousethumb 4 (speaking of huchies that's the AC 20), secondary coaxial goes on mousethumb 5 (speaking of my 4H means the two torso and head mounted mediums), eventual further coaxial or secondary arm-mounted weapons when present go on the central mouse and missiles/srms go on the Q key.

I didn't even tried your one because A) I don't have and won't have a 4G (his presence in the legendary founder along with Jenner and C1 was enough to divert me -and the price- to the Elite Founder in order to pick only the AS7-D) and B ) I find the 4H superior, basically because to truly employ more than 1 ballistic on the 4G you really need to go around with low-rated engines, which is something I don't really want in a medium or take your approach about two MGs fun, which I admit are fun to use because of their critting ability (that I'm pretty sure devs will reduce sooner or later) but again you have to go with sub 250 rated engines and so no thanks. The only build I ran with sub-250 engines was with a 235, GR+3 tons and again 4Mls (HBK-4H), back in the golden non-exploding GR times, and it wrecked hell.
Everytime a new player comes and I give them my 4ML/AC 20 4H they instantly improve their scores even without having it mastered; it teaches you how to deal with ballistics, heat and when they try an HBK with a 250 they tell me they will never fall back from that rating.

Everyone has his approach about builds, I have it my way and you in yours; what's most important is that it must suit you!

Edited by John MatriX82, 20 August 2013 - 01:54 AM.

[Kiritumi]

Between my Golden boy and Hunchback champ i have been playing more medium game. Personal preference is putting six flamers on my Hunch because