42 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

This thread is bad, and you should feel bad.

I have run the BJ-3 in its primary stock build before (well, at least the weapons... everything else is subbed out and improved due to obvious reasons).

The thing about the BJ-3 is that it can pseudo-brawl... that is, you can use the medium lasers to help yourself heatwise when brawling, while trying to cool down as much as possible. You can easily replicate the build in a Quickdraw (the 5K specifically) and improve upon its cooling problems.

The thing of it is... the PPC is not a sustainable brawling weapon. It was never meant to be.. ONLY when you were sufficiently cooled off was when this was a viable option. There is a major difference between "heat management" and "trigger discipline"... and although one has an impact over another, it is ultimately a matter of the pilot to be fully aware of his situation and not become trigger happy when someone goes aggressively shooting at you in a brawl. The PPC heat increase is not significant enough to be complained about... this is primarily user error that is being described here.

[Angel of Annihilation]

FupDup, on 18 August 2013 - 03:37 PM, said:

So, in other words, you were in fact using the PPCs in a playstyle doesn't mesh very well with the pros/cons of the weapon.

No I was using a PPC in a playstyle that worked perfectly fine prior to the patch but now doesn't work so fine after the patch and disagreeing that it now shouldn't work so fine. Additonally your the one that keeps insisting the weapon be one way only, not me.

Quote

The heat increase didn't make PPCs a downgrade to the LL, even if using more than one. There are still plenty of reasons to use the weapon (see previous post for recap).

As usual you didn't read a word I said about the pros of using LLs vs a PPC and still keep sticking to the same party line despite this. Prior to the change they were very comparable to LLs. After the change LLs edge them out a bit due to heat and weight. This is how I feel about them and why I have almost totally removed PPCs from my mechs. I can also demonstrate this by tracking my effectiveness with PPCs vs LL and the LLs win out almost every time. Now maybe I am just amazing at using LLs and suck at using PPCs, I don't know, but I do know that LLs perform better for me now. I also know it sucks being forced to us one weapon type because the other option is no longer competitive for me use with my prefered builds and playstyle.

Quote

Here's a an ancient Chinese secret about game balancing. The two options for balancing most equipment are:
A. Very very good at a specific task but sucky at all others. Example: SRMs are good up close but useless beyond 270 meters.
B. Decent in many tasks but excels at none--"jack of all trades but a master of none." Examples: ML and LL are pretty versatile but get beaten at long range by sniper weapons and in close range by things like AC/20.

C. Better at one task than another but still useful at that other task. The old heat PPC/ER PPC is an example of this. It did well at long range but also could be used in melee range with the disadvantage of being the heaviest and hottest Energy weapon.

Point is, there are just about as many ways to balance a game as their are stars in the sky. It definately doesn't have to be something as simple as Rock, Paper, Sissors.

Quote

What you're asking for (or at least what it looks like to me) PPCs to be is a jack of all trades and a master of everything. Can you not see the issues that arise from such balancing? No weaknesses means that there's no effective counter. Maybe I'm on an island here, but I'm pretty sure that it's bad for a game if a player can mindlessly choose one single loadout option and roll over everything in his path without worrying about being countered.

No I am asking PPCs to resemble what they were in TT, a viable alternative to using LLs for your primary heavy energy weapon. I am asking for comparable but different. I am asking for useable in multiple roles, not just as a long range weapon. I am asking for options to mount on my mech so I don't have to run a cookie cutter build.

What you seem to want however is them to be ONLY useful for long range sniping. Why? Especially why when we have so few weapons in the game as is, why do you want this weapon to only have one use with zero adaptability.

Quote

I'm sorry, but you shouldn't be able to be rock, paper, and scissors all at the same time. It completely wrecks competitive PvP games and turns them into "metarape" fests of spamming the best build.

Look at my previous response. balance doesn't have to be rock paper sissors. It can be alot of rock and a little bit of paper or perhaps 1/2 scissors, 1/2 rock. This sort of balancing gives more options and versitality.

Quote

You only explode from firing due to ghost heat's effect of 3+ PPCs being alpha'ed. Firing only 2 at a time (which is a necessity now due to ghost heat) won't ever make you explode unless you deliberately try to make it happen.

However even with 16 DHS, I can't keep two PPCs cool. Hell I couldn't do it before either but at least I could run dual PPCs, a couple MLs and an SRM or two in a fairly managable fashion. Now I can barely operate the 2 PPCs let along some supporting weapons.

Quote

In most of my experiences the close engagements don't usually start happening until ~4-5 minutes into the match, when most people have taken some damage and some mechs are dead. Up until that time, most mechs are exchanging potshots from behind hidey hills. The ones that survive that long are often wounded enough to finish off easily, or they lack enough support to take you (a PPC Stalker) down. The key is to cripple as many enemies as you can before people on both teams get impatient and start boxing matches. Having a fast mech like a K2 (I go 86.4 KPH) can help you run away from most enemies if you sense that things are about to get bad.

You have a point here but I have no trouble usually working the flanks and getting in close when I want to. Just a few matches ago I took a 64 kph JagerMech around the enemy flanks where I managed to ambush 4 enemy mechs. 2 were clean solo kills for me with very little damage taken in return. 1 was an assist where I did 80% of the damage only to lose the kill to a KS again with very little damage to me and the last one I managed to get down to a bright red CT before 3 of his teammates came back to help him and concentrated all their fire on me.

Quote

One very anecdotal case I remember was being stuck with an enemy AC/40 Jagerbomb and Wang (prior to ghost heat) with a 2/2 Stalker at the Frozen City dropship. I was able to kill the Jagerbomb and get one or two shots on the Wang before dying. Unfortunately I can't remember what healths were at before it happened, but what I do know is that the Jager and Wang (and myself) were in pretty decent condition before it happened.

Another less dramatic case was more recent with my K2 on Tourmaline. Basically, my CT was at orange exposed internals and I then got stuck in a duel with a Hunchie who had his AC/20 gone and 3 Medium Lasers still functional. The instant-fire nature of ERPPCs meant that I only need to look at him just long enough to squeeze a shot off. With a duration weapon, I would have died to CT laser fire due to having to stare directly at him for a moment for each shot. I'm also lucky that he was stupid enough to waste his ML shots on my fresh rear armor like I baited him into doing (I mooned him for most of the duel) instead of being smart and waiting for me to twist for him to fire.

Again I get this. I understand completely the advantage of a PPC or ER PPC and fully give it credit where credit is due. My point and one you keep dismissing is that a LL has several advantages going for it as well and the ONE advantage a PPC has, even though it is a good advantage doesn't necessarily trump the advantages of the LL. I futher truely believe that with the added heat, the LL really does edge out the PPC in performance now where before it was a "balanced and comparable" weapon to the LL. They are used differently and utilize different tactics but that doesn't make one totally better than another.

Additonally your scenerios can all be attributed to player skill. For example, in your last scenerio just because you managed to bait another mech into firing his lasers at your rear armor doesn't mean you will for all players. I mean I would like waited till you start turning back at me and fire my lasers just as soon as you turned enough to expose the CT at an angle. Then I would have held the pulse there as you completed your turn and lined up on me. I am pretty much guarentee you that this would take around a full second at which point your CT would have felt the full effect of my lasers. Additionally if he just fired his medium lasers, you would have had a full 3 seconds to turn, fire and hold a beam on the enemy and turn away if needed before he could fire again. Basically you don't need an instant fire weapon in that scenerio if you have good enough skills with your mech and lasers.

Again I am just trying to reiterate that the PPC doesn't have that much of a clear advantage over the LL to justify the additional heat.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 18 August 2013 - 09:31 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Koniving has a good idea how to fix the heat scale, just hard limit the heat cap at 30, done, end of story.

Fail. This is one of the worst ideas ive ever heard. All this would accomplish is screwing up the game even more. Weapon that generate heat would be completely useless and almost everyone would be using gauss and autocannons while energy weapons and missiles would effectively be dead.