20 replies to this topic

[NotEnoughDakkaDakka]

Annihilator. Masakari. Catapult. Kraken. All of these are big f*cking 'Mechs with a ton of big guns. Four LBX-10s and 4x MPLas, 4x cERPPC, 2x LRM15/LRM20 plus change, TEN UAC/2s.

And yet, they each have their own flaws that made them easy to outplay, and will translate rather well here.

Take, for example, the Annihilator. It is capable of mounting four Gauss rifles, for a massive, heatless 60 point alpha. Everyone who's ever heard of the 'Mech should know its weakness, however; the 100-tonner has a much lower-than-average armor rating, at 12 and a half tons. For reference, that's 400 out of a potential 614 points of armor. It's also SLOW. 32.4kph is SLOW, okay? Even with the tripled range of ballistics, a single Light 'Mech (i.e. a stock Jenner-D) can get and STAY behind it, even if under pressure.

The Masakari. Coming in at 85 tons, mounting the deadliest Clan weapons available, it has an issue of its own; heat control. It rates at 64.8kph, making it a slightly faster OmniMech for its tonnage, yet it still has the issue of heat. Twenty double-heat sinks were viable for extreme-long range alpha strikes, or else it had to fire in a 3/2 volley just to stay cool enough to operate. If it fired all its weapons, its LRM ammo had a chance to EXPLODE. Translating to this, it's gonna run hotter than anything else in this game right now, and even the best pilots will have issues with fire impulse control when other Mechs close in.

The Catapult, for another, or maybe the Archer. (Yes, unseen, I know.) Two LRM-15/20s and four Medium Lasers combined with jump jets were quite the weapons, though they also had issues. If you get within 180m, the LRMs are nullified, leaving it with relatively few weapons that also tax the heat sinks severely.

And finally, the Kraken. Ten UAC/2s. THE dakka. Four tons of ammo, though? It's gonna run out of dakka real fast, firing almost (0.5/2 x10 = 40) forty shells a second. It's also spread out, has jamming issues, and only has four machineguns as backup. Simple counter; either take a heavily-armored 'Mech and use it as bait, spreading the damage, or do the same with a Light 'Mech, except use your speed to avoid the ridiculous hail of fire. Also, heat. Not an issue in TT, will overheat in about five seconds in this game.

Discuss?

[FupDup]

My comments:

1. The Warhawk/Massakari Prime is a gimp build, believe it or not. FASA pretty much pooped all over its face in TT. For instance, it uses FF instead of Endo, which effectively robs it of one ton of weight that could be used on other things. Also, as you already mentioned, FASA gave it an LRM10 stock. This wastes 2.5 tons of weight (3.5 with ammo counted in) that also should have been used for better things. And, also as you mentioned, FASA gimped it farther by giving it explodable ammo that could be critted out by the enemy or exploded by running too hot. And, of course, they gave it too few DHS to handle all of its PPCs at the same time without risking that ammo explosion. It has a crapload of wasted weight.

You shouldn't use the stock Warhawk Prime as an argument for PPC boats being fine, because it was horrifically gimped in numerous ways in TT. If you really want to see an intimating PPC carrier, check out the Hellstar. The Hellstar is quite possibly the most efficient design in all of Tabletop. It carries enough DHS (30) to alpha strike its 4 ERPPCs constantly, moves very fast for a 95 tonner (64 kph), carries just 0.5 tons less armor than an Atlas, and has no ammo explosion liabilities. There is not a single Mechwarrior video game min-maxed "metarape" build in history that squeezes as much efficiency out of every ton and every critical slot as the stock Hellstar does.

...While the Hellstar is technically a Dark Age mech, all of the technology it needs to be replicated exists at the time of the invasion (DHS, XL, ERPPC, Endo). Of course, PGI's heat scale makes it impossible to utilize that many ERPPCs at the same time even with chain fire enabled, so everything I just described is moot. Clanners will probably have to use around 2-3 ERPPCs and a Gauss instead of quad ERPPC.



2. The Kraken is kind of a gimmick build, and more of a just for fun thing than actually viable. It would be especially bad in MWO because the AC/2 runs too hot as it is. The Kraken would be shut down most of the match. It's also a DPS build, and those have a weakness against high-alpha builds that don't need to stay exposed. The first thing people will do with a Kraken is strip out the UAC/2s and put in Gauss or larger UACs.


3. The Catapult...is already in the game and has head and CT hitbox issues. And LRMs aren't even that good at long range due needing to keep a lock until impact (they can never ever hit good hillhumpers). I don't even know why you included it in your post.


4. The Annihilator doesn't need to waste all of its tonnage on quad Gauss. A more practical build is triple Gauss with some ML, or maybe even dual Gauss and dual PPCs. Regardless, it'll basically be a bullet magnet like an Atlas (especially with low-slung arms) with better long-range firepower.


5. In general, you're framing your arguments around the stock builds or other bad builds for those mechs. Nobody except nubs and roleplayers use stock builds. The first thing players will do is remove the weaknesses FASA deliberately installed on those units.

Edited by FupDup, 18 August 2013 - 08:10 PM.

[Deathlike]

Stock builds are good in this game?

Maybe you should try a TRIAL MECH (excluding the Champion mechs, A1 is the current one). Have fun with that!

[Ralgas]

I think he's trying to weigh in on the restricted size hardpoints debate, badly.

There is a point about cannon boats and how they will impact such a system, but i'm done arguing it today

[xenoglyph]

Cannon boats you say?

[Alexandrix]

This isn't table top.The balancing factor for boated load outs simply doesn't exist here.Dice rolls,non pin point alpha.What do you think the chances are all 4 of those erppc's or gauss would hit the same panel in table top? I can tell you,virtually zero without the blessing of the gods.

You can't make comparisons like that when the balancing factors aren't present.

[aniviron]

As Fup says, you are basing all of these on stock builds. Almost all stock builds in MWO are given weaknesses intentionally, and players remove them with an unrestricted mechlab. Fup points out most of the correct points, but I just wanted to add that my favourite is how you mention the annihilator is underarmored, as though people played MWO without maxing the armor on every mech. If the annihilator makes it into the game, it WILL have as much armor as an atlas every time you actually see one. I guarantee you this.

[Deathlike]

I still want the Annihilator... the dakka is strong in thee.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

LRM boats are the only issue I've noticed since coming back last weekend. Unless the target has ECM you can effectively remove them from the fight with a Boat while the Boat still contributes with spotting/LoS and the victim huddles under a rock.

[XSerjo]

War is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength... A lie repeated does not become truth - huge pinpoint Alphastrike isn't canon for Inner Sphere mechs of 3050's. Tabletop is not balanced for this, and all previous mechwarrior games were not balanced.

And PGI proved that it can't be balanced with current game mechanics.

[Erata]

Plus, they can re-balance robots by adjusting their max engine size, or further down the line, adding different quirks apart from torso twist limitations, make every robot have unique heat threshold. All sorts of things they could do to balance clan weapons, which are for all intents and purposes total upgrades.

[NotEnoughDakkaDakka]

Deathlike, on 19 August 2013 - 06:22 AM, said:

I still want the Annihilator... the dakka is strong in thee.

I know... the want.

FupDup, on 18 August 2013 - 07:57 PM, said:

My comments:

1. The Warhawk/Massakari Prime is a gimp build, believe it or not. FASA pretty much pooped all over its face in TT. For instance, it uses FF instead of Endo, which effectively robs it of one ton of weight that could be used on other things. Also, as you already mentioned, FASA gave it an LRM10 stock. This wastes 2.5 tons of weight (3.5 with ammo counted in) that also should have been used for better things. And, also as you mentioned, FASA gimped it farther by giving it explodable ammo that could be critted out by the enemy or exploded by running too hot. And, of course, they gave it too few DHS to handle all of its PPCs at the same time without risking that ammo explosion. It has a crapload of wasted weight.

You shouldn't use the stock Warhawk Prime as an argument for PPC boats being fine, because it was horrifically gimped in numerous ways in TT. If you really want to see an intimating PPC carrier, check out the Hellstar. The Hellstar is quite possibly the most efficient design in all of Tabletop. It carries enough DHS (30) to alpha strike its 4 ERPPCs constantly, moves very fast for a 95 tonner (64 kph), carries just 0.5 tons less armor than an Atlas, and has no ammo explosion liabilities. There is not a single Mechwarrior video game min-maxed "metarape" build in history that squeezes as much efficiency out of every ton and every critical slot as the stock Hellstar does.

...While the Hellstar is technically a Dark Age mech, all of the technology it needs to be replicated exists at the time of the invasion (DHS, XL, ERPPC, Endo). Of course, PGI's heat scale makes it impossible to utilize that many ERPPCs at the same time even with chain fire enabled, so everything I just described is moot. Clanners will probably have to use around 2-3 ERPPCs and a Gauss instead of quad ERPPC.

(And now that I remember the Hellstar... that should never have been made. Jesus almighty, that thing.)

2. The Kraken is kind of a gimmick build, and more of a just for fun thing than actually viable. It would be especially bad in MWO because the AC/2 runs too hot as it is. The Kraken would be shut down most of the match. It's also a DPS build, and those have a weakness against high-alpha builds that don't need to stay exposed. The first thing people will do with a Kraken is strip out the UAC/2s and put in Gauss or larger UACs.


3. The Catapult...is already in the game and has head and CT hitbox issues. And LRMs aren't even that good at long range due needing to keep a lock until impact (they can never ever hit good hillhumpers). I don't even know why you included it in your post. (Couldn't think of a good LRM boat at the moment, and realized one of the Kraken variants had eight LRM-15s right after I posted.)


4. The Annihilator doesn't need to waste all of its tonnage on quad Gauss. A more practical build is triple Gauss with some ML, or maybe even dual Gauss and dual PPCs. Regardless, it'll basically be a bullet magnet like an Atlas (especially with low-slung arms) with better long-range firepower.


5. In general, you're framing your arguments around the stock builds or other bad builds for those mechs. Nobody except nubs and roleplayers use stock builds. The first thing players will do is remove the weaknesses FASA deliberately installed on those units.

I realize now that yeah, that kind of was a bit of a flawed argument. However, at least some of it still stands. The Annihilator will have a super low engine cap, at roughly 240 (tonnage *1.2 for assaults), so even with three Gauss rifles, it's still ridiculously slow, at 38.88 (38.9) kph. Also, slots and tonnage will be an issue STILL, as that is 45 tons plus, say, two tons of ammo per rifle, for 51 tons. The engine will take 16.5 tons, you'll need an extra heat sink, for 17.5 tons, and Endo-Steel structure takes five tons. That leaves us at 73.5 tons, or 26.5 tons free. Say you put the 18 and a half tons in armor, good. You only have eight tons for backup weapons and heatsinks/ammo/equipment. You're still slow, heavily ammo-dependent, and vulnerable to said Gauss rifles exploding.

Alexandrix, on 18 August 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

This isn't table top.The balancing factor for boated load outs simply doesn't exist here.Dice rolls,non pin point alpha.What do you think the chances are all 4 of those erppc's or gauss would hit the same panel in table top? I can tell you,virtually zero without the blessing of the gods.

You can't make comparisons like that when the balancing factors aren't present.

Which is why a convergence fix would also be kind of nice, if PGI/Paul didn't have their heads in the sand.

aniviron, on 19 August 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

As Fup says, you are basing all of these on stock builds. Almost all stock builds in MWO are given weaknesses intentionally, and players remove them with an unrestricted mechlab. Fup points out most of the correct points, but I just wanted to add that my favourite is how you mention the annihilator is underarmored, as though people played MWO without maxing the armor on every mech. If the annihilator makes it into the game, it WILL have as much armor as an atlas every time you actually see one. I guarantee you this.

Yeah, kind of realized this afterwards. Does frigging everything narrow down to convergence being an issue in this game?

[GODzillaGSPB]

NotEnoughDakkaDakka, on 18 August 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

Annihilator. Masakari. Catapult. Kraken. All of these are big f*cking 'Mechs with a ton of big guns. Four LBX-10s and 4x MPLas, 4x cERPPC, 2x LRM15/LRM20 plus change, TEN UAC/2s.

And yet, they each have their own flaws that made them easy to outplay, and will translate rather well here.

How many of these boating yet quirk-balanced mechs are already in the game?

[XFactor777]

I still stand by my statement that the Kodiak will break this game 100 tons 8 ER meds, 1 ER large, 1 UAC/20, 2 streak 6's all at 64kph and a small cockpit and 1 1/2 tons less armor than a Atlas

[Joseph Mallan]

t

XFactor777, on 19 August 2013 - 12:21 PM, said:

I still stand by my statement that the Kodiak will break this game 100 tons 8 ER meds, 1 ER large, 1 UAC/20, 2 streak 6's all at 64kph and a small cockpit and 1 1/2 tons less armor than a Atlas

The Kodiak will not get into this game. Not enough Variants.

Not that I disagree with your assessment. It was much more powerful than a Atlas on TT.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 19 August 2013 - 12:29 PM.

[XFactor777]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 August 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

t
he Kodiak will not get into this game. Not enough Variants.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Kodiak I count six plus a hero how is that not enough?

[Joseph Mallan]

XFactor777, on 19 August 2013 - 12:27 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Kodiak I count six plus a hero how is that not enough?

Please note the dates of those variants.

[XFactor777]

Joseph Mallan, on 19 August 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Please note the dates of those variants.

true but considering that none of the variants mount "new" weapons I think exceptions can be made(if you cant tell I REALLY want this mech) and until PGI says no I will continue to hope

[El Bandito]

aniviron, on 19 August 2013 - 06:21 AM, said:

As Fup says, you are basing all of these on stock builds. Almost all stock builds in MWO are given weaknesses intentionally, and players remove them with an unrestricted mechlab. Fup points out most of the correct points, but I just wanted to add that my favourite is how you mention the annihilator is underarmored, as though people played MWO without maxing the armor on every mech. If the annihilator makes it into the game, it WILL have as much armor as an atlas every time you actually see one. I guarantee you this.

Nah, it will have much less leg armor to save tonnage for more Gauss ammo.

Edited by El Bandito, 19 August 2013 - 12:43 PM.

[XFactor777]

also in response to the Hellstar (ANH-1E - This field-expedient refit was used by the Dragoons after the Battle of Misery. All of the autocannons were removed and replaced with four PPCs and two additional Medium Lasers. The ANH-1E also carried forty-one heat sinks, enough to fire the main weapons continually)