20 replies to this topic

[MechFrog1]

As it stands, the LB10x is a laughably bad weapon, even after the latest round of 'balancing'.

A humble suggestion:

Give the LB10x a reverse PPC effect. Standard damage until <100m at which point damage would increase on a linear scale to 1.5-2.0x at point blank. It would become the fearsome weapon at close range and give it a place in the game. If you want to help bring brawling back to the game, give us some weaponry to fight.

lunacy, I know... but simple solutions are usually the best.

[Tezcatli]

I prefer the idea of adding more pellets, but increase the scatter a bit, so that if you can catch someone in close range it does more then 10 damage. Catch someone a bit out of that, it should do around 10 damage, further out less then 10.

[MoonUnitBeta]

The LBX is not as bad as you say it is. It's more than often a laughably good weapon because that's all I do when people come close to my Jager S.

Some people , and even myself, have mentioned that the LBX have an alternative ammo which fires an AC5 shell, and 5 smaller 1 damage pellets.
I suggested a increased heat, or reload time, or lower ammo per ton for that type of ammo.

The LBX isn't BAD. It's not the BEST. But it is GOOD.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 19 August 2013 - 02:39 PM.

[MechFrog1]

MoonUnitBeta, on 19 August 2013 - 02:34 PM, said:

The LBX is not as bad as you say it is. It's more than often a laughably good weapon because that's all I do when people come close to my Jager S.

Some people , and even myself, have mentioned that the LBX have an alternative ammo which fires an AC5 shell, and 5 smaller 1 damage pellets.
I suggested a increased heat, or reload time, or lower ammo per ton for that type of ammo.

The LBX isn't BAD. It's not the BEST. But it is GOOD.

It's such a bad weapon that most people ignore it and run right up to the player for an easy kill. Especially when people slap two LB10x's onto their mechs, doubling down on the bad. It is not the BEST. It is not GOOD.

[PanzerMagier]

mint frog, on 19 August 2013 - 02:27 PM, said:

but simple solutions are usually the best.

Which is why PGI will never do it.

/thread

[Chronojam]

This change sounds like it would be a good way to bolster its existing up-close performance (beyond the simple fact that more pellets hit up close), it acknowledges that deviating from tabletop numbers might be good for balance, it can probably be done within existing game mechanics without code changes, and it would act in accordance with how shotgun-type weaponry typically works in a shooter so it will be in line with player expectations.

Basically you rolled a yahtzee here, this is worth tinkering with on the test server.

[Garth Erlam]

[color=cyan]I really like the 'extra damage at close range' idea (though maybe not 2.5x ) - I'll forward that on [/color]

[Neozero]

simple solution to LBX weapons. Allow them to fire both slug and cluster ammo like they do in TT and now players can use slug at range to open people up and cluster to score crits once opened. Keeping in mind here the devs have stated the will be expanding what is and is not "critable" IE hips, lower legs shoulders. Things that currently are unable to take any damage other then directly to the IS or Armor of that limb.

Edited by Neozero, 19 August 2013 - 03:06 PM.

[Chronojam]

Neozero, on 19 August 2013 - 03:05 PM, said:

simple solution to LBX weapons. Allow them to fire both slug and cluster ammo like they do in TT and now players can use slug at range to open people up and cluster to score crits once opened. Keeping in mind here the devs have stated the will be expanding what is and is not &quot;critable&quot; IE hips, lower legs shoulders. Things that currently are unable to take any damage other then directly to the IS or Armor of that limb.

This is a totally awesome idea, too, but require code changes that are unlikely in the short term. In the long term being able to use some kind of ammo-select system to set your LBX ammo type, or your UAC firing rate (and thus jam chance), would be wonderful additions.

[Grey Ghost]

If they never intend to let us fire the slug rounds, why keep the extended range stats on it from table top, especially since the shotgun rounds appear to totally dissipate before traveling it's listed full damage range?

If it's going to stay a shotgun forever, then it's time to change it's stats accordingly to represent that!

[Wintersdark]

mint frog, on 19 August 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

It's such a bad weapon that most people ignore it and run right up to the player for an easy kill. Especially when people slap two LB10x's onto their mechs, doubling down on the bad. It is not the BEST. It is not GOOD.

Yup. It's not a worthless weapon - it does do roughly AC10 damage, spread out all over the place, even up very close. But not being worthless doesn't make it good. It doesn't even make it mediocre. The LB-X AC10 is an objectively bad weapon. It's inferior to the AC10 in virtually every circumstance, and only matches it at point blank range. It's terrible at ranges beyond around 150m, and only matches the AC10 inside around 90m.

And for all those losses? You save one ton and one slot. And really? The AC10 we're comparing it to is just a decent weapon at the best of times, it's not a particularly good one.


I do like a damage multiplier for the LBX up close. I think that's a very creative and yet marvelously simple way to really add some shine to an otherwise terrible weapon.

[MoonUnitBeta]

mint frog, on 19 August 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

It's such a bad weapon that most people ignore it and run right up to the player for an easy kill. Especially when people slap two LB10x's onto their mechs, doubling down on the bad. It is not the BEST. It is not GOOD.

Lol kay, then my 4 kills and 540 damage can say otherwise (no, that's not just "one" game either. happens often) I love it when people ignore it and chase after me. I love it when people think it's crappy. Because I'm apparently proving them all wrong. I have Jager S and DD, both of LBX10, machine guns, and med lasers. the DD has 2 less med lasers and 2 more MG's.

[Chronojam]

MoonUnitBeta, on 19 August 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

Lol kay, then my 4 kills and 540 damage can say otherwise (no, that's not just "one" game either. happens often) I love it when people ignore it and chase after me. I love it when people think it's crappy. Because I'm apparently proving them all wrong. I have Jager S and DD, both of LBX10, machine guns, and med lasers. the DD has 2 less med lasers and 2 more MG's.

I get that with four medium pulse lasers on a dragon, it doesn't mean medium pulse lasers or dragons are worth a damn. His suggestion is elegant.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Chronojam, on 19 August 2013 - 04:14 PM, said:

I get that with four medium pulse lasers on a dragon, it doesn't mean medium pulse lasers or dragons are worth a damn. His suggestion is elegant.

neato! but I'm also packing around 23 more tons of weapons and little room for heat sinks after ammo and a decent engine is into place. Also with the DD i only have 2 med las.

ANYWAYS. I'm not against LBX buffs. Just people make them out to be worse than they really are... Hyperbole should be the motto of this forum lol

[Wintersdark]

MoonUnitBeta, on 19 August 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

Lol kay, then my 4 kills and 540 damage can say otherwise (no, that's not just "one" game either. happens often) I love it when people ignore it and chase after me. I love it when people think it's crappy. Because I'm apparently proving them all wrong. I have Jager S and DD, both of LBX10, machine guns, and med lasers. the DD has 2 less med lasers and 2 more MG's.

Ok, really, this "I get x kills and y damage" needs to stop. It's just not a way to judge balance, because there are several factors at play.

1) Elo.

You can play nothing but Trial mechs and do "well", getting numbers like that. It'll take a while, and require you not running other mechs in that weight class, and you'll lose a LOT at first... but then... Bam! You'll get great numbers. Because your opponents are terrible. This doesn't mean Trial mechs are good or even ok.

2) Skill.

If you're a decent player, you can make a poor weapon/mech do reasonably, because player skill is far, far more important than mech/weapons. This still doesn't make any given mech or weapon good.

If you can do well with an LB-X, you'd do better with an AC10. Or, well, practically anything.

[MoonUnitBeta]

Wintersdark, on 19 August 2013 - 04:58 PM, said:

Ok, really, this "I get x kills and y damage" needs to stop. It's just not a way to judge balance, because there are several factors at play.

1) Elo.

You can play nothing but Trial mechs and do "well", getting numbers like that. It'll take a while, and require you not running other mechs in that weight class, and you'll lose a LOT at first... but then... Bam! You'll get great numbers. Because your opponents are terrible. This doesn't mean Trial mechs are good or even ok.

2) Skill.

If you're a decent player, you can make a poor weapon/mech do reasonably, because player skill is far, far more important than mech/weapons. This still doesn't make any given mech or weapon good.

If you can do well with an LB-X, you'd do better with an AC10. Or, well, practically anything.

ELO - There isn't really an ELO at this point. Getting teamed up with people putting out 6 kills and 1000 damage (i know what you said before, but the point of it is they're better players than i am) and also in the same game we get a chat message " Hello! This is my second game! " and we all say hello and greet him to mechwarrior. The more interesting thought is if I would be getting 500 damage and surviving if i was teamed up against 23 players that matched my Elo.

Skill - I did worse in an AC10, simply because I was being too selective with my shots and not firing enough. I was trying to make that next pin point shot to hit the same area twice. LBX hits a broader area and you can deal 5 damage to the component you're aiming at, and the other 5 to the component that you meant to hit. with AC10 that's 10 damage that went into armor and not the unarmored component. Mind you, on the flip side you can also deal less than 10 damage to the component you want to hit. My aim has improved, but my OCD to hit the same spot twice and not able to sometimes, or I hold for too long and miss my opportunity.

Anyways. I'm not sure why we're talking about all this now. All I just came into here to say that the LBX has it's place and isn't a bad weapon. lol But like i said, bring on the buffs!

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 19 August 2013 - 05:49 PM.

[FerrolupisXIII]

mint frog, on 19 August 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

It's such a bad weapon that most people ignore it and run right up to the player for an easy kill. Especially when people slap two LB10x's onto their mechs, doubling down on the bad. It is not the BEST. It is not GOOD.

I like when people try and face hug my LB-10x K2. once their armor is open i usually tear out their main weapons with the next volley. its a super fun build though i admit it works better on Jagermechs. I fully admit to not having fantastic aim in MWO, partially due to my low FPS and the fact im too twitchy. so the LB-10x's make my life better. i miss FAR less than i would with 2x AC-10's or 2x PPC. and the mediums provide plenty of pinpoint damage as needed. just because you dont like them doesn't mean they're bad. in fact they're much improved from their old form in closed beta, i can easily hit mechs over 500 meters away with them now. plus there is nothing better than putting a couple of alpha's into an atlas's CT when he came around a corner after a team mate.

then again, Fun > Function. i think they could use a little buff to really make them compete with the other Cannons, but they're certainly not bad.

[tucsonspeed6]

I just got out of a match that I was certain was a lost cause. I was so sure of it I kamikaze'd my k2 to end it quickly. Then I started spectating a guy in an Ilya. He was decked out with 3 lbx10s I was certain that was a waste of a build, but this guy all but swept the board. Those things chain fire almost as fast as ac5s, and it was devastating to the other team. I swear he dropped 6 guys in less than 2 minutes.

I don't care what anyone says. After seeing that match, I think in the right hands the LBX10 is anything but broken.

[General Taskeen]

There is a easier change that could be implemented without the "close range" idea. Specifically, it is a long range gun, so something should reflect that.

The simplistic approach, in my view, is just:

- 1.1 or 1.2 Damage Per Pellet within its range (0-540m) (increase damage if necessary from further public testing) and/or further decrease spread
- Reduce Cool down of AC/10 only slightly (Leave LB 10-X cool down as is, or in other-words, always firing slower for possibly more damage)

Voila!

I would be very sad if the LB-X gun stays in a close-range format and not the awesome long-range format of all other Mech Warrior games. Otherwise the super sniper LB 2-X and LB 5-X effective ranges are going to suffer quite a bit from current functionality.

Once Clan Variant Mechs get in the game, the very first thing I would do is strip off any LB-X gun if they stay the way they are. Practically all the super Clans do is use the 'superior' Ultra's and LB-X.

Edited by General Taskeen, 20 August 2013 - 07:28 PM.

[LiegeOfThePit]

Honestly guys, it depends which mech you use if you use an atlas it's usually bad because people tend to keep their distance against you but it's a good fly swatter it can easly hit a light mech trying to chew away at your back. But if you use a light mech it can be really good because you'll find yourself caught in a light mech duel, the LB-X will almost definitely hit your target with at least one pellet (unless your not aiming at all). The other thing that most people tend to not know about is Critical hits. The LB-X has a higher crit than most weapons. Incase you don't know critical hits (also know as critting) is the thing that destroys your weapons ammo or engine even if that arm, leg or torso isn't destroyed. This also makes the LB-X good for faster mechs.