11 replies to this topic

[Foxfire]

And will remain useless until either high damage alphas are done away with or mediums are made in sizes smaller than 'same exact size as most heavy mechs'...

[Gunivar]

The scale and high damage Alphas are just scape goats from what actually hurts Mediums:
Lack of any proper tool for making sure most mechs are Mediums.
Meaning, with actual weight balancing, there is an actual edge to putting your Heavy/Assault out there amidst the lesser armored and lesser armed, and using a light is far more tactical, as Mediums have a better ability for hitting them, especially with the new agility.
Mediums are not "Medium" because they fit the rather linier definition of "smaller" people seem to like to use here, but because they balance firepower and armor with speed to be able to have a high diversity of tactics because they are the primary mechs in a lore-battle (with certain exceptions.)
Also, most Heavy Mechs in this game are on the "smaller side" compared to the Cataphract and the upcoming Orion and Thunderbolt.

[Foxfire]

PGI has already determined that proper R&R(the major driver behind Mediums being the 'main force' mech) is out of the window. Weight restrictions will encourage their use more but will still fail to address what currently makes them rare right now( a bad combo of slower speeds for their class and overall larger size).

The problem with most of the current mediums is that they don't really have the 'speed' to put them above heavies, though they do have greater agility. There are only two mediums that truly outclass heavies on speed and one is a glorified light mech. The rest are on par with heavy mechs speed wise but lack the armor to really survive at those speeds.

Overall, they are almost universally too slow and have too little armor to be able to stand up in fights with high alpha damages and most lack the speed to be able to really contend with lighter, faster mechs(I can systematically pick apart any medium in my light mechs without much fear from that mech, no matter which light chasis that I field).

I want mediums to truly fill a role on the battlefield and to be able to do so on the merits of performance and not some outside limitation such as drop limits necessitating them.

[Tsig]

What qualifies as "Too Slow"? Because at 80+kph, the only Heavies that can keep up with my Mediums are Quickdraws and Dragons...both of which are supposed to be fast.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Gunivar, on 20 August 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:

The scale and high damage Alphas are just scape goats from what actually hurts Mediums:
Lack of any proper tool for making sure most mechs are Mediums.
Meaning, with actual weight balancing, there is an actual edge to putting your Heavy/Assault out there amidst the lesser armored and lesser armed, and using a light is far more tactical, as Mediums have a better ability for hitting them, especially with the new agility.
Mediums are not "Medium" because they fit the rather linier definition of "smaller" people seem to like to use here, but because they balance firepower and armor with speed to be able to have a high diversity of tactics because they are the primary mechs in a lore-battle (with certain exceptions.)
Also, most Heavy Mechs in this game are on the "smaller side" compared to the Cataphract and the upcoming Orion and Thunderbolt.

They were the primary mechs in Battletech lore because the were cheap to maintain and operate, not because they were some magical balance of firepower and armor. In fact Medium mechs in Battletech lore were distinctly poorly armed. Lets look at a few of the "best" Inner Sphere mediums.

Wolverine - 1 UAC/5, 1 SRM6 and 1 MPL.
Griffin - 1 PPC, 1 LRM20 and 1 SL.
Dervish - 2 ML, 2 Streak SRM2, 2 LRM10.
Enforcer - 1 LB-10X, 1 ER LL, 1 SL.

Nothing what so ever to write home about there as far as weaponry is concerned now is there?

Again they were cheap to operate at roughly about half the cost or less to manufacture than a Heavy Mech. It was also cheaper to transport 40-50 tons mechs on drops ships than 100 tonners as it required less reaction mass to move the lighter weight mechs.

Now this stuff is all nice and everything for fluff purposes but how do you MAKE people play Fluff rather than what actually is the best mechs?

[Tsig]

Viktor Drake, on 20 August 2013 - 05:40 PM, said:

They were the primary mechs in Battletech lore because the were cheap to maintain and operate, not because they were some magical balance of firepower and armor. In fact Medium mechs in Battletech lore were distinctly poorly armed. Lets look at a few of the "best" Inner Sphere mediums.

Wolverine - 1 UAC/5, 1 SRM6 and 1 MPL.
Griffin - 1 PPC, 1 LRM20 and 1 SL.
Dervish - 2 ML, 2 Streak SRM2, 2 LRM10.
Enforcer - 1 LB-10X, 1 ER LL, 1 SL.

Nothing what so ever to write home about there as far as weaponry is concerned now is there?

Again they were cheap to operate at roughly about half the cost or less to manufacture than a Heavy Mech. It was also cheaper to transport 40-50 tons mechs on drops ships than 100 tonners as it required less reaction mass to move the lighter weight mechs.

Now this stuff is all nice and everything for fluff purposes but how do you MAKE people play Fluff rather than what actually is the best mechs?

Without R&R, there really isn't a good way to make people play Mediums more often. Except, maybe, Tonnage Limits.

[Lefty Lucy]

Tsig, on 20 August 2013 - 05:44 PM, said:

Without R&R, there really isn't a good way to make people play Mediums more often. Except, maybe, Tonnage Limits.

R&R doesn't encourage people to play mediums. They'll just play lights if they want to make money, and heavies/assaults if they already have enough. Tonnage limits, similarly, don't encourage mediums. Since both lighter and heavier mechs are more effective, tonnage limits will just mean more lights if people have to leave their assault and heavy mechs.

[Jaynestown]

Why isn't there just a hardcore queue with 1PV, R&R, and Loyalty Points, then another queue with 1PV/3PV, free R&R, and no loyalty earned...

Hell you don't even need to separate them side by side. You could have the hardcore queue face off against the other one. The rewards would just be different. That could be the difference between playing for a house or playing for a corps...

[YueFei]

The only thing I am interested in for the changes are the new arm pitch angles. That is because Hunchback upper arms are skinny, so they are not reliable for blocking shots. Now with increased pitch angles for the arms, maybe I can more easily use the Hunchback forearms to block shots.

The new torso twist angle increase does not seem terribly useful. The trouble I have is not keeping a heavier mech in my sights, it is me trying to stay *out* of the firing arc of the heavier mech, and a bigger twist range does not help with that.

[Corvus Antaka]

Lefty Lucy, on 20 August 2013 - 05:49 PM, said:

R&R doesn't encourage people to play mediums. They'll just play lights if they want to make money, and heavies/assaults if they already have enough. Tonnage limits, similarly, don't encourage mediums. Since both lighter and heavier mechs are more effective, tonnage limits will just mean more lights if people have to leave their assault and heavy mechs.

I'm unconvinced. 2 ac/20 hunchbacks is on par with 1 light & 1 heavy in example. 2 40 ton cicada with dual ERPPC could do many nasty things to many mechs, including dominate a flea and a quickdraw with a good pilot.

Still you have a point, but this is a balance question that needs testing first.

what we really need is tonnage based scoring, so that a hunchie earns more & gets more XP for doing 500 dmg than an atlas in example. this woulc be 1 way to encourage mediums.

Conquest having faster cap timers on the bases would also encourage more mobile mediums, and many mediums are great for killing lights quickly and can easily handle 2 lights even, esp with SSRM dmg up again now.

[Deathlike]

I'll have to play some Hunchies to see how much of an effect this has for looking up and down... as that seems to be the most notable change...

[hashinshin]

Well this change does two things:

A. It allows mediums to fight lights far easier.
B. It allows mediums to strafe lone assaults far easier.

it does NOT however do anything about assaults obliterating entire sections away from range, or heavies being impossible to fight 1v1.