27 replies to this topic

[Rakshasa]

Just finished a run of test matches with my new KTO-20 build, which is based around a group of medium pulse lasers supplemented by a bunch of missiles and decent engine and armour ratings for a nice compact brawler. The problem is (aside from the Kintaro's at-present astoundingly magnetic CT), the heat levels generated by its 4x MPLs are virtually uncontrollable compared to regular ol' vanilla medium lasers. The results from a brawling standpoint have been...less than amazing

This got me thinking about the MPL mechanically compared to its non-pulse cousin, and the price it seems to demand in terms of doubled weight and nut-roasting heat after the run of test games aren't jibing at all with what the guns actually seem to be doing. For double the weight, the MPL buys you:

1. Notably reduced range.

2. Notably increased heat, both regular and "ghost."

3. A fairly mediocre damage boost and 0.25 seconds off the point time of the beam.

Now I'm not a "Rules R Rules! (See rules)" tabletop purist - I know many people on the forums aren't either - but I do think in most cases the tabletop rules do a fairly decent job of balancing out the effects of the different guns, so I ran a beady eye over what the TT pulse laser provides for its weight increase. Shorter range - check. Increased heat - check, thought it seems pretty mediocre at a single point extra. Increased damage - check, same as the heat it's an extra point. So far, so head-scratching. The biggest advantage though seems to be the pulse laser's -2 to hit modifier, which in TT would be pretty huge - it's the equivalent of 2 extra points of gunnery skill (iirc), which seems to be mainly what the extra weight is paying for.

As it stands MWO has pixel-perfect targeting, so that modifier isn't really applicable. The 1/4 reduction in beam time seems to be the mechanical nod to it, but that and a slight increase in damage seem hardly worth the extra ton, reduced range and huge surge of heat that makes regular medium lasers seem positively frosty in comparison as tradeoffs. Does anyone else also think that MPL's could maybe use a little loving?

And before any slaps me facewise with the wet and fishlike arguments of "use moar heatsinks" or "omg lern to use gun scrub!", I'm not complaining that I can't use MPL's in their current form - I'm worried that they're a whole lot of extra weight and heat for a whole lot of nothing much, and no weapon should be like that in MWO

Edit: Cleaned up to reduce nonsense and repetition >.>

Edited by Rakshasa, 21 August 2013 - 11:17 AM.

[General Taskeen]

Its been noted, trust me. You aren't going to get wet and fishlike arguments from me.

Being a purist really doesn't have much to do with the lackluster pulse lasers; they are basically just that - not translated well in-game. The only thing 'purist' about them is their retainment of damage profile, crit space, and weight; just the same as regular lasers or other weapons.

Most people want them to be re-programmed to be even more unique, sort of like MW3's 'machine gun' pulse lasers.

[Oktoglokk]

I've tried MPLs and LPLs on many builds, but never stuck with them and gone back to using MLs or LLs or some other configuration. Pulse lasers don't come anywhere near close to being worth it.
If they did all of their damage instantly (or close to it), then I'd give them another try.

[Jman5]

MPL probably does need some balancing work. Currently, the only value it really has is for really niche builds where you have:

1. 1 energy slot
2. 1 open slot space
3. 2 free tons
4. good heat by default
--BONUS CONSIDERATIONS--
5. it's a slot in the CT or Head for maximizing firepower when you're on your last legs.

I've been playing around with the new engine upgrade on the 4SP lately and have been running around with this.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...adaa79396fca406

I had no room and 2 tons left over so I opted for a MPL in the head. It does ok and I've gotten some solid kills with it when I'm a stick.

[ArmandTulsen]

I use them on my VTR-9K.

Gauss, 3 MPL, 10 SRMs, XL360 and 4 JJ.

They do good secondary damage. But the build is for hit 'n runs, so take it FWIW.

[Huntsman]

Medium pulse lasers (and large) need work. As it has been mentioned, they are too hot, too heavy, and have a short range. The fact that they do 1 extra point of burst and deal their damage in a slightly shorter timeframe in no way makes up for these deficiencies.

The only mechs that really should care about the shorter burn time are fast mechs that are fighting other fast mechs. Unless you and the target are moving at a combined 250-300 KPH, you shouldn't have any trouble putting all the damage of a standard ML right where you want it.

Further, fast mechs are the only ones well adapted to bring these closer ranged weapons to bear on their targets without too much trouble. Most fast mech, on the other hand, can't really make much use of MPLs because they are simply too hot and heavy.

There are a few lighter builds that can use MPLs as part of their loadout, but there are usually better ways to build the variant in question. Even a mech like the Cicada 3M with just 4 energy hardpoints...it seems like this mech is screaming for 4 MPLs, but in reality this build is just too hot to be practical on a scout mech; simply not providing it with enough DPS to emerge victorious in a typical scout v. scout brawl.

[627]

And i always thought you get these penalties as tradeoff for the coolest weapon sounds in the game.... *wubwubwub*

Btw, LPL are a bit heavy but pretty good in a fight, but MPL are just to hot if you boat them. 2 are okish but with 4 MPL, you'll shut down in no time, more so in smaller mechs.

Edited by 627, 21 August 2013 - 10:21 PM.

[aniviron]

Pulse lasers actually just had their beam time dropped to .5s instead of .75s, so they are a little better than you think, at least. I also hear rumors that they frontload their damage in the first part of the beam duration, making them do most of their damage to whatever you first aim at.

That said, while they work okay for certain niches, pulse lasers are terrible in almost every regard, you are correct. If you search, there have been a lot of good threads (and some bad ones) for how to fix pulse lasers dating back to the start of Open Beta and further. Their current implementation is just fundamentally flawed right now, as they don't do anything regular lasers don't, but have much higher 'costs.'

[Khobai]

The problem with MPLs is that PGI hasn't really done anything to differentiate them from MLs. MPLs are basically just a slight variation on the ML with higher dps, more heat, and shorter range. And that's the dilemma.

Pulse Lasers arnt meant to be a slight variation of a Medium Laser. Pulse Lasers are meant to be a very in-your-face weapon that does massive damage in the short-range bracket.

I think pulse lasers should do bonus damage the closer you are to the target. This would differentiate lasers from pulse lasers by making lasers a standoff weapon and pulse lasers a close-up knife-fighting weapon. I would say a 20% damage bonus at 0m, 15% bonus at 45m, 10% bonus at 90m, 5% bonus at 135m, 0% bonus at 180m, would be a sufficient to make pulse lasers viable. So every 9m the bonus would drop 1%.

Edited by Khobai, 23 August 2013 - 03:41 AM.

[Bacon_Warrior88]

Rakshasa, on 21 August 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Just finished a run of test matches with my new KTO-20 build, which is based around a group of medium pulse lasers supplemented by a bunch of missiles and decent engine and armour ratings for a nice compact brawler. The problem is (aside from the Kintaro's at-present astoundingly magnetic CT), the heat levels generated by its 4x MPLs are virtually uncontrollable compared to regular ol' vanilla medium lasers. The results from a brawling standpoint have been...less than amazing

This got me thinking about the MPL mechanically compared to its non-pulse cousin, and the price it seems to demand in terms of doubled weight and nut-roasting heat after the run of test games aren't jibing at all with what the guns actually seem to be doing. For double the weight, the MPL buys you:

1. Notably reduced range.

2. Notably increased heat, both regular and "ghost."

3. A fairly mediocre damage boost and 0.25 seconds off the point time of the beam.

Now I'm not a "Rules R Rules! (See rules)" tabletop purist - I know many people on the forums aren't either - but I do think in most cases the tabletop rules do a fairly decent job of balancing out the effects of the different guns, so I ran a beady eye over what the TT pulse laser provides for its weight increase. Shorter range - check. Increased heat - check, thought it seems pretty mediocre at a single point extra. Increased damage - check, same as the heat it's an extra point. So far, so head-scratching. The biggest advantage though seems to be the pulse laser's -2 to hit modifier, which in TT would be pretty huge - it's the equivalent of 2 extra points of gunnery skill (iirc), which seems to be mainly what the extra weight is paying for.

As it stands MWO has pixel-perfect targeting, so that modifier isn't really applicable. The 1/4 reduction in beam time seems to be the mechanical nod to it, but that and a slight increase in damage seem hardly worth the extra ton, reduced range and huge surge of heat that makes regular medium lasers seem positively frosty in comparison as tradeoffs. Does anyone else also think that MPL's could maybe use a little loving?

And before any slaps me facewise with the wet and fishlike arguments of "use moar heatsinks" or "omg lern to use gun scrub!", I'm not complaining that I can't use MPL's in their current form - I'm worried that they're a whole lot of extra weight and heat for a whole lot of nothing much, and no weapon should be like that in MWO

Edit: Cleaned up to reduce nonsense and repetition >.>

reduced heat output by a value of 1 would go along way for this weapon

[Tezcatli]

Personally I feel they should lower the cooldown on it .25 seconds. And .50 seconds on large pulse lasers. But that's just me apparently >.>

Otherwise, really, does 1 extra ton and extra heat, with reduced range, equal to a little less beam duration? They need to lower the cooldown so it's a good brawling weapon.

[SiriusBeef]

Tezcatli, on 23 August 2013 - 09:08 AM, said:

Personally I feel they should lower the cooldown on it .25 seconds. And .50 seconds on large pulse lasers. But that's just me apparently >.>

Otherwise, really, does 1 extra ton and extra heat, with reduced range, equal to a little less beam duration? They need to lower the cooldown so it's a good brawling weapon.

I guess that makes 2 of us...

[Lefty Lucy]

627, on 21 August 2013 - 10:21 PM, said:

Btw, LPL are a bit heavy but pretty good in a fight, but MPL are just to hot if you boat them. 2 are okish but with 4 MPL, you'll shut down in no time, more so in smaller mechs.

You say "a bit heavy" like it isn't important, but it absolutely is. Any weight spent on using a LPL over a LL or ERLL is weight that cannot be dedicated to heat sinks, armor, a bigger engine, or other weapons.

[William Mountbank]

I actually don't mind the LPL, since it's much cooler than an ERPPC but with a higher dps. The lower range is the main reason for choosing a PPC instead of the LPL, but I still drop with LPLs and feel competitive.

What I don't understand is why the MPLs have that massive WUBWUBWUB base drop, but the LPL sounds like you just farted in the cockpit?

[Tezcatli]

Lefty Lucy, on 23 August 2013 - 10:57 AM, said:

You say "a bit heavy" like it isn't important, but it absolutely is. Any weight spent on using a LPL over a LL or ERLL is weight that cannot be dedicated to heat sinks, armor, a bigger engine, or other weapons.

Yeah. I wouldn't say the pulse weapons are bad. But they aren't as effective for their requirements, compared to other weapons.

[NineTails]

As things stand, IMHO, they are too similar to their same-class laser weapon. I'd prefer to see hold-down-the-trigger constant pulse fire Pulse Lasers, frankly.

[Lefty Lucy]

William Mountbank, on 23 August 2013 - 11:43 AM, said:

I actually don't mind the LPL, since it's much cooler than an ERPPC but with a higher dps. The lower range is the main reason for choosing a PPC instead of the LPL, but I still drop with LPLs and feel competitive.

What I don't understand is why the MPLs have that massive WUBWUBWUB base drop, but the LPL sounds like you just farted in the cockpit?

They changed the LPL sound effect a few patches ago. I have no idea why but I miss being able to put on a dubstep show.

[Corvus Antaka]

the pulses lasers could maybe stand a 10-20% damage buff due to their short range. they are fairly close to useful now with the new beam time though.

[jper4]

MPLs are ok for a backup weapon on those mechs with one or two energy slots (if i have the space i toss them on some of my jagers), or as has been mentioned some light builds- i actually use 4MPLs on my blackjack 1x and have done ok in the limited time i've been using them. i'm usually moving too fast to do full damage with a 6-8ML in one location (yes my aim is horrible) so figured i'd cut down the number of weapons but be more able to keep the damage in one spot. has worked ok though i've only run a few matches with it. works better on lights cause those things don;t stay still long enough for a full ML damage to register. but i generally run brawlers so getting close is my usual fighting style anyway so range isn;t as big an issue.

LPLs i've tried a couple times but didn;t really like them. hot and seemed sluggish to me, never went back to them. SPLs i do like- range is the same as a regular SL even if it's a half ton more. i tend to swap off an ML here and there for a SPL if i need to bump up the heat efficency on my brawlers a few points. i keep one in the head of my 4SP since i'm probably about to die anyway so may as well have those final futile shots all landing in the same place instead of spraying 5 points all over with a ML.

[TerrorOfDeath]

Pulse weapons are {Scrap} at this stage to be honest ...so much better alternatives .I doubt even clan tech can save these horrible weapons .