28 replies to this topic

[Artgathan]

Take a look at the missile ports any of the mechs released since OB. The way that these are arranged effectively limits what can be mounted inside.

Sure, you can put an LRM-20 or SRM-6 in the Raven-3L's left arm, but it won't be combat effective (since the missiles will come out one at a time). PGI has proven that they can make flexible hardpoints (switch the SRM racks to LRM racks on a Highlander's arm and see the difference), so this sort of feature is intentional.

This system has prevented the effective use of various builds (such as 3 X SRM6 Victors, 4 X SRM6 Kintaro-19, and others). My question is: why has PGI limited the effectiveness of one type of weapon (missiles) while not doing so for the others?

If they can attempt to enforce certain builds (the single missile port is clearly to promote the use of NARC, various other missile racks lend themselves to specific launchers) through this for missiles, why can't it be done for other weapons?

What I'm suggesting is this: you want a PPC on your Stalker? Fine. But it'll fire 2 shots for 5 Damage each every time you pull the trigger. You want an AC/20 in your Blackjack? 2 shots for 10 damage (or 4 shots for 5 damage!).

Would this be effective? Or would it just limit the number of "top-tier" mechs further?

[TexAce]

Sorry to dissapoint you but this limitation will go away soon. The Kintaro for example does not have it at all. If you put in a LRM20 it shoots as a LRM20 with 20 missiles in one volley.

[Artgathan]

TexAss, on 22 August 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

Sorry to dissapoint you but this limitation will go away soon. The Kintaro for example does not have it at all. If you put in a LRM20 it shoots as a LRM20 with 20 missiles in one volley.

Have they stated it's going away?

I'll be happier when it does - it rendered one of my Highlander builds useless. One of my SRM6 started firing 1 missile at a time.

[AlmightyAeng]

My brawler Victor witih 3 SRM6 works just fine. No, they don't all come out at the same time...it just means you lead and follow the target.

[KuruptU4Fun]

They're not going to open up classification (E/B/M) locations like Clan Omni-mech's have. IS has to differentiate themselves in that aspect. It does balance itself out somewhat because Clan Stars are limited to 5 mechs where IS lances have 6.

[Artgathan]

Ghost Badger, on 22 August 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

My brawler Victor witih 3 SRM6 works just fine. No, they don't all come out at the same time...it just means you lead and follow the target.

But that limits your combat effectiveness - a good brawler unloads everything in one volley and then turns away from the target to shield their CT. Having to lead and follow the target is a disadvantage, as it leaves you vulnerable to return fire.

KuruptU4Fun, on 22 August 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

They're not going to open up classification (E/B/M) locations like Clan Omni-mech's have. IS has to differentiate themselves in that aspect. It does balance itself out somewhat because Clan Stars are limited to 5 mechs where IS lances have 6.

IS Lances are 4. I'm not talking about opening up classifications; I'm suggesting that we alter weapons behaviour in a way that we've already seen.

Load an SRM6 into the X-5's torso slots? Ripple fire - 3 volleys of two missiles. Load an AC/20 into a K2? Ripple fire - multiple volleys of AC rounds.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Artgathan, on 22 August 2013 - 10:26 AM, said:

But that limits your combat effectiveness - a good brawler unloads everything in one volley and then turns away from the target to shield their CT. Having to lead and follow the target is a disadvantage, as it leaves you vulnerable to return fire.



IS Lances are 4. I'm not talking about opening up classifications; I'm suggesting that we alter weapons behaviour in a way that we've already seen.

Load an SRM6 into the X-5's torso slots? Ripple fire - 3 volleys of two missiles. Load an AC/20 into a K2? Ripple fire - multiple volleys of AC rounds.

The Victor really has no issues with mounting and using 3 SRM6s effectively but the Heavy Metal is sure suffering from its one shot SRM6. Bad part is it displays 2 six tube lanchers in mechlab but one fires singles. Hopefully they will this bug soon as I really can't play my Hero mech until they do unless I want to totally rebuild it.

Still most mechs don't really suffer too much from the restrictions and if they do, it kind of makes sense that they would and it also is yet another thing that makes some mechs just a little different from each other so that the aren't clone. Call it a quirk which is something they planned to add anyway.

[JonDoeIowa]

Why not simply implement a sized hard point system?

[General Taskeen]

Yes OP, they already stated they will go back and make all hardpoints modular to what is fitted in a slot.

[Artgathan]

General Taskeen, on 22 August 2013 - 11:55 AM, said:

Yes OP, they already stated they will go back and make all hardpoints modular to what is fitted in a slot.

Can you source this please? I'm curious when they said this (more specifically, if it was pre- or post- Kintaro launch)

[Bishop Steiner]

KuruptU4Fun, on 22 August 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

They're not going to open up classification (E/B/M) locations like Clan Omni-mech's have. IS has to differentiate themselves in that aspect. It does balance itself out somewhat because Clan Stars are limited to 5 mechs where IS lances have 6.

eh... Inner Sphere Lances are traditionally 4 mechs, grouped into companies of 12.

I think either Comstar or Rasalhague does use the 6 mech element, though.

[Ralgas]

Artgathan, on 22 August 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Can you source this please? I'm curious when they said this (more specifically, if it was pre- or post- Kintaro launch)

A loooong time pre, it'd be hard to find at this point.

[General Taskeen]

Artgathan, on 22 August 2013 - 12:03 PM, said:

Can you source this please? I'm curious when they said this (more specifically, if it was pre- or post- Kintaro launch)

Just trust us, we're MWO Historians at this point. 88% of my time is spent on these forums at my government job, rather than playing the game lol.

You may find the answers you seek in the Answer the Dev question threads. Modular hardpoints are not high priority for older Mechs from Closed Beta, but they have been incorporating some of it with newer Mechs added. It'll just take some time.

Edited by General Taskeen, 22 August 2013 - 01:33 PM.

[Artgathan]

Ralgas, on 22 August 2013 - 01:22 PM, said:

A loooong time pre, it'd be hard to find at this point.

General Taskeen, on 22 August 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Just trust us, we're MWO Historians at this point. 88% of my time is spent on these forums at my government job, rather than playing the game lol.

You may find the answers you seek in the Answer the Dev question threads. Modular hardpoints are not high priority for older Mechs from Closed Beta, but they have been incorporating some of it with newer Mechs added. It'll just take some time.

lol I've been around for a while myself and try to keep an eye on things like that.

The reason I asked for the source is because I wanted to see the date attached to it. If it was indeed made long before the launch of the Kintaro, I don't think we're going to see fully modular hardpoints. I think the current limitation system will remain in place for missile launchers because:

• The Kintaro-19 has only one missile port in the CT, regardless of what you put in it (while the other ports are dynamic).
  
• The Highlander-733C (and possibly others, but this is the only one I'm aware of) was changed in a recent patch (last one in July I believe) so that a 2nd SRM rack mounted in the Left Torso causes missiles to fire out of a single port (previously there was a scaling rack).

These lead me to suspect that we will not see a change in this system, and that the changes that PGI is talking about for older models will serve to nerf certain builds (such as by limiting a Cenutrion-A's launcher limit to 10, which would affect the SRM10+ loadouts) so that they come into line with more recent mechs.

[General Taskeen]

Artgathan, on 22 August 2013 - 02:14 PM, said:

The reason I asked for the source is because I wanted to see the date attached to it. If it was indeed made long before the launch of the Kintaro, I don't think we're going to see fully modular hardpoints.

I will explain examples:

The first Founders Mechs were programmed without "modular" hardpoints even if you slotted something different. Then as some other Mechs were added, the Devs liked the idea of modular hardpoints and incorporated them "loosely" on some Mechs when they had time (low priority). Example: Centurion. The transition from Closed Beta to Open Beta, the Catapult-K2 received additions to it as they went back and added modular hardpoints for it -> The catapult seen now is entirely different from the one in closed beta where if you put someone in the MG slot, it never changed the visual (Gauss fired from MG slot).

Now as part of PGI's design process new mech models have higher priority to have this stuff added. They stated in ATD that they will back to older Mechs when they have time so a weapon that is slotted will change its appearance. Occassionally those things sneak into patches when the model/artist people make those changes.

[Artgathan]

General Taskeen, on 22 August 2013 - 03:55 PM, said:

I will explain examples:

The first Founders Mechs were programmed without "modular" hardpoints even if you slotted something different. Then as some other Mechs were added, the Devs liked the idea of modular hardpoints and incorporated them "loosely" on some Mechs when they had time (low priority). Example: Centurion. The transition from Closed Beta to Open Beta, the Catapult-K2 received additions to it as they went back and added modular hardpoints for it -> The catapult seen now is entirely different from the one in closed beta where if you put someone in the MG slot, it never changed the visual (Gauss fired from MG slot).

Now as part of PGI's design process new mech models have higher priority to have this stuff added. They stated in ATD that they will back to older Mechs when they have time so a weapon that is slotted will change its appearance. Occassionally those things sneak into patches when the model/artist people make those changes.

I think we're talking about two different issues. I understand that PGI is doing an art pass on the older mechs (for example, giving the Atlas a hex-barrel is it has Gauss). What I'm suggesting is that the art passes on newer mechs (such as the Trebuchet, Kintaro, Highlander) have reduced their ability to utilize missile weapons effectively.

[mazza11]

My favourite idea for sized hardpoint limitation is a light, medium, heavy for each hardpoint. light hardpoints have a 0-2 ton restriction, medium have a 3-5, heavy have a 6+. The beuty of this is, it will increase the amount of diversity we see in the game, but certain mechs can still have the high alpha builds, such as Awesomes. But it will also stop the mass pinpoint builds that we currently see. Although there is the risk that without weight restriction we could be seeing just mass amount of awesomes instead.

Interesting thing aswell, that the usual group that I play with have been trying to introduce new players into the game, and there biggest issue is that due to current meta, there lack of understanding usually causes them to be wiped out with seconds of combat due to high pinpoint alpha.

[Artgathan]

I'll try and be clearer because there appears to be some confusion.

We don't need hardpoint limits. We already have a working system in place: you put something where it doesn't belong, it fires in several volleys (EX: an SRM6 in an X-5 launces 3 SRM2 salvos). This could be used to break up PPC/Gauss/AC20 volleys from mechs where those weapons aren't found / deemed appropriate.

[mazza11]

As much as I would like to agree with what you suggest this would not work well for high alpha wep, simply put, the potentail damage in the short amount of time is still there, it is working fine for missile's IMO. Due to the combination of missile weapons not doing pinpoint damage/scattering and firing in set grouping as you described above. A ppc firing in 2 salvos is 2 hits in a short amount of time to a local area, it feels like a quick fix over a larger issue.

Also the idea for different volleys is something that is in the mechwarrior universe, so restricting weps to a set volley will limit that option being introduced at a later date-
Variants of ac20- different variations fire in 4 groups of 5, 10 groups of 2, or vice versa.

[Artgathan]

If the larger issue is pinpoint accuracy dealing high damage to a single location, then my proposed solution fits the bill as a viable alternative. Variants of weapons being mounted on different mechs could be used as an explanation for why different chassis behave in different ways.

The variants of weapons would still have a place on mechs that were meant to mount the weapons; a hunchback would simply have more options. On top of all the other variants that fire in bursts, it also has access to the one that fires 1 shell.