38 replies to this topic

[Fishbrane]

For the nerds out there who wonder where Schrödingers Cat ran off to, this is an interesting read.

http://www.huffingto..._n_3273422.html

[Angel of Annihilation]

Xeren KelDar, on 23 August 2013 - 09:54 AM, said:

It's because of the Succession Wars. If the Star League had remained and the Amaris Coup had not happened, the technology would have continued to advance and probably mirror the Clan Tech at least.

Once Kerensky ditched the Inner Sphere, taking a lot of the advanced tech with him, the Succession Wars began. These were brutal atrocities utilizing every weapon of mass destruction available. The houses started killing enemy scientists and facilities so that they wouldn't develop an advantage. Jumpships were a prime target. Eventually the Houses realized how bad a blunder this was as no one left alive new how FTL worked or even the basic premises of the Battlemech technology.

Recently this had begun to change with things like NAIS (New Avalon Institue of Science) and the Helm Memory Core offering boosts to progression, but I don't think anyone can make jump ships yet so everyone reuses the old ones and hope they don't break.

This. Basically everything fell to Anarchy and War. All the major R&D facilities were destroyed, in fact entire economies were destroyed. Armies fought without supplies and things became a war or attrition. Mass Starvation, Disease, poverty. Basically pretty much what happen after the Roman Empire fell and we entered the Dark Ages. To give perspective, when Rome fell, the human race lost the secret to manufacturing Concrete for 300 years and to this day there are studies that show that the concrete mixure used by the Romans was actually stronger than modern concrete.

So Gen. Kerensky took 90% of the army to into unknown space, taking with it the majority of what was left of the R&D, resources and best scientists leaving the Inner Sphere to burn with the intention of returning at some point after Humanity had finally exhausted itself with war. This by the way is why Clan technology is so advanced compared to Inner Sphere technology. Bascially while the Inner Sphere was still struggling with the ravages of war, they found new planets to settle on and got their infrastructure up and running. Then they took the baseline technology that took with them from the Inner Sphere and started improving on it well before the Inner Sphere started recovering.

By the 3025 timeline, the Inner Sphere had finally finished rebuilding and with the recovery of some very major lostech data, they had managed to reach a point where they could start again improving on technology. However up to this point they didn't have the capabilities to create even the underlying technologies necessary to recreate much the old technology. 3050 is only about 25 years into that recovery period and finally the Inner Sphere could really start manufacturing new mech designs, build new Jumpships and develop new weapons and technologies.

The exception to this rule is Comstar which retained much of the Star League Technology in secret on Tera.

In fact the huge growth of Inner Sphere technology hasn't taken place yet. It isn't until after Leo Showers death and the one big meeting on Outreach that technologies really take off. At this point, the Wolf Dragoon's open up quite a bit of slightly antiquated clan technology to the Inner Sphere. Then later Comstar releases alot to the technology they had kept secret for centuries. Even with all this, the Inner Sphere doesn't reach partity with the Clans until well in the 3060s and maybe not even then simply because the Clan had too much of a headstart. Eventually they do catch up though, simply because of manpower and resources.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 24 August 2013 - 10:25 PM.

[IceLom]

You have to suspend allot of disbelief for much of Battletech to make any sense.

The concept of mechs alone is stupid, we learnt very early in tank designing making something really tall makes it a giant target, and its best to keep low to the ground. Every time I see a mech i cant help but think how stupid it was to make the thing a giant tall target.. Not to mention the giant glaring weak spot that legs are.

[CDLord HHGD]

Don't forget, the Clans, while still technologically superior to the IS, had their war of attrition on the Pentagon worlds. That's where Nicholas Kerensky comes in and forms the Clans. The ritualistic side of the Clans was as much to preserve the remaining tech as it was to bring order to chaos.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lostech
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clans

[Deadxero]

Your thinking on the assumption that FTL travel is the most unimaginably complicated thing in existence. It could be one of those things that really isn't that difficult to understand once you know how to put the pieces together.

For example, a modern internal combustion engine would be magic to someone living in the Roman empire, but is based on concepts simple enough for an every day person, with a basic education, to understand today.

Everything seems impossible until someone figures out how to do it, and in the end it's almost always a matter of putting a handful of simple concepts together.

[LordBraxton]

Keep in mind the representation of Battletech in mechwarrior games is a lot more clunky than described in the fiction.

Mechs should be able to sprint and crouch and go prone, punch and kick and use melee weapons, and in general be a ton more lithe and agile than the walking gun platforms presented in MWO

[Escef]

LordBraxton, on 25 August 2013 - 09:49 AM, said:

Keep in mind the representation of Battletech in mechwarrior games is a lot more clunky than described in the fiction.

Mechs should be able to sprint and crouch and go prone, punch and kick and use melee weapons, and in general be a ton more lithe and agile than the walking gun platforms presented in MWO

Part of it is the limitations of the average gaming console or PC, as well as the game engine. There are in-universe reports of mechwarriors that have been able to make their machines to cartwheels... Actually, I have seen a Hunchback do a cartwheel in MWO, but it sure as hell didn't land in fighting condition.

[RandomLurker]

The Kearny-Fuchida (K-F) jump drive uses a massive amount of energy to fold space, instantaneously moving the dropship from one point to another. This energy comes from a massive solar sail that harvests energy from the star. Time to charge depends on the star, but generally is around two weeks. The only conventional thrust most jumpships have is a low-power fusion engine used to counteract the gravity from the local star- all it does is keep the JS in place. The jumpships stays out at the jump point, which is either directly above or below the star, where gravity from the various planets is at it's most neutral. Dropships then go to and fro to the planets. The dropships themselves operate according to a 20th century understanding of spaceflight- they thrust towards the destination, halfway there they turn around and thrust in the reverse direction to slow down. Depending on the size of the solar system, a one way trip can take days or weeks.

This means that a mech deployment requires 1-2 months of travel and hundreds of support crew. Consider that while grinding 5 matches an hour for C-bills.

IIRC, at this point in the universe there are only 2 factories left that can actually build ships. The K-F drive requires advanced 0-g orbital factories for it's superconducting components. What's left of humanity doesn't have the tech to build those anymore. Most jumpships are hundreds of years old, patched together so many times that they would make the Millenium Falcon look like factory stock. Jumpships are so valued by all sides that attacking one is considered just as bad nuking a civilian city. Jumpships don't even carry weapons. This leads to the odd situation of two factions jumpships, sitting peacefully next to each other at a jump point while mechs on a nearby planet pound each other to dust.

In fact, new mech designs were not even being built for the last couple hundred years. Factories ran based on old blueprints and noone knew enough to make new ones. Only two things changed that. Around 2025, after a decade of studying textbooks found in an ancient Star League library, the New Avalon Institute of Science (NAIS) in the Federated Suns was finally able to design the first brand new mech in over a hundred years: the Hatchetman. In 3028, the Gray Death Legion merc company discovered an old Star League library memory core. The information in the core was so far ahead of Successor State tech that it would take years for them to catch up, even with the manuals right in front of them.

The result is that by 3050, aka MWO time, weapons and technology that were commonplace 500 years ago are just starting to be rebulit for the first time. This is where the ER weapons, Streak and Artemis systems, Endo-steel, etc all come from.

The Clans are a different story. Kerensky's army had their own set of wars, in a way far more brutal then the Succession Wars back home. There were almost no civilians after all, everyone was military personnel. After bombing themselves into the stone age, Nicholas Kerensky (somehow) re-formed the society into the Clans. With so few people left, they turned to cloning tech. With so much destruction, they instituted a code of honor that minimized the destruction caused by war. Clan honor emphasizes getting the most done with the fewest resources; thus you have 1 vs 1 honor duels, bidding for the right to take on an invasion where the commander who bids the fewest forces wins the bid, and ritualized Trials in place of actual warfare. The result is that military tech has been preserved and even advanced, but civilian tech (like jumpships) never advanced beyond Star League levels.

Lorenerd signing off.

Edited by RandomLurker, 25 August 2013 - 11:13 AM.

[Escef]

RandomLurker, on 25 August 2013 - 11:09 AM, said:

The Clans are a different story. Kerensky's army had their own set of wars, in a way far more brutal then the Succession Wars back home. There were almost no civilians after all, everyone was military personnel. After bombing themselves into the stone age, Nicholas Kerensky (somehow) re-formed the society into the Clans. With so few people left, they turned to cloning tech. With so much destruction, they instituted a code of honor that minimized the destruction caused by war. Clan honor emphasizes getting the most done with the fewest resources; thus you have 1 vs 1 honor duels, bidding for the right to take on an invasion where the commander who bids the fewest forces wins the bid, and ritualized Trials in place of actual warfare. The result is that military tech has been preserved and even advanced, but civilian tech (like jumpships) never advanced beyond Star League levels.

A couple brainfarts and/or typos aside, the Inner Sphere side of this was largely spot on.

As for the clans... Kerensky's army settled 5 marginally habitable worlds, dubbed The Pentagon Worlds, and began a massive demobilization program. It did not take long for people to self-segregate based upon nationalistic lines, and in a few years there were armed insurrections. Alexander Kerensky died of a massive stroke while planning to put down these insurrections. His son, Nicolas, gathered those who would follow him, making it a point to gather as many techs and researchers as possible, and fled to a handful of other habitable worlds that settlement had also begun upon.

While those that remained in the Pentagon blew themselves back to the stone age, Nicholas set about creating a new society from scratch. He eschewed any and all nationalistic ideas, and even removed the conventional family system. He built this society from the ground up. There was some resistance amongst his followers, but it stayed quiet for some time as they were busy first with trying to survive and rebuild their agricultural, technological, and industrial bases. The fledgling clans' first major military action was the conquest of the Pentagon worlds. Shortly after this the clans started growing apart from one another, with one clan going so far as to attempt to leave clan society. This renegade clan was wiped out, but rumors have persisted of the survival of 23r(&YGYOB$3ij2r [Transmission Garbled]

Anyway, 300 years of advancement and expansion eventually led to the clans sending out an expeditionary force disguised as a mercenary unit, to scout the Inner Sphere for eventual reconquest, as the clans saw themselves as the saviors of humanity and believed it their duty to reinstate the Star League. There was still debate amongst the clans until a ComStar Explorer Corps vessel wandered into clan space purely by accident. This was taken as a sign by the clans that if they did not move the the inner sphere than the Inner Sphere would eventually move on them. And thus the invasion was triggered.

[Angel of Annihilation]

IceLom, on 25 August 2013 - 01:42 AM, said:

You have to suspend allot of disbelief for much of Battletech to make any sense.

The concept of mechs alone is stupid, we learnt very early in tank designing making something really tall makes it a giant target, and its best to keep low to the ground. Every time I see a mech i cant help but think how stupid it was to make the thing a giant tall target.. Not to mention the giant glaring weak spot that legs are.

Honestly, totally agree, at least in the scope of Battletech. A 18m tall walking object is just a massively big target that is visable to all. However I sincerely believe that at some point we will have mechs on the battlefield in the real world. However they are going to be more like the mechs in Heavy Gear, 5m tall and more like a light armored vehicle than a MBT, probably weighing 15- 20 tons max. There is just too my versitality to the human form not to have them eventually. Think of the terrain we as humans can cross. Additionaly we can duck, lie down, crouch, roll, side step, etc. Eventually they will have a small mech that can do that too.

cdlord, on 25 August 2013 - 05:57 AM, said:

Don't forget, the Clans, while still technologically superior to the IS, had their war of attrition on the Pentagon worlds. That's where Nicholas Kerensky comes in and forms the Clans. The ritualistic side of the Clans was as much to preserve the remaining tech as it was to bring order to chaos.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Lostech
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clans

True enough and which also explains why Clan technology isn't even more advanced than it actually is. 300 years is a long time and lets face it, the Clan Tech, advanced as it is, is only maybe 50 years ahead of Inner Sphere tech.

For example, 300 years ago, we barely had firearms and cannons and most armies where still equiped with pikes and swords. We didn't even have engines. On the other hand, the weapons and equipment of the 1950s and 1960s could still put up a credable fight in a conflict today.

It is obvious the Clans technology didn't have 300 years of development behind it.

[RandomLurker]

Thanks Escef for filling in one the clans. They were never my strongest interest in terms of game lore.

The secret to Battletech is Magic Mech Armor™. Basically, their sheer durability lets them outlast anything else on the battlefield. The game rules are heavily skewed toward making mech's the most survivable unit available. An SRM volley, that might be split up over sever sections of a mech, all hit the same section on a vehicle. This means that, to a tank, SRMs are as deadly as gauss rifles at 1/3 the weight. Also, vehicles have only one section of internal structure, and any internal damage has a VERY high chance of destorying the wheels/tread/hover fans and immobilizing it.

Accept that single point in-universe and most of the rest follows. One of the reasons I like the Btech universe so much is that the application of unobtainium (and it's more advanced alloy material, handwavium) is kept to a minimum. Compared to other verses anyway There's a certain amount needed just to make the premise work, but once you accept the in-universe rules, overall it makes a lot of sense.

[GANKSRUS]

Its not just that Random. Its also a combination of many things. I really liked the explanation given in the MW3 manual. It comes down to firepower, mobility and survivability. Wheeled and tracked vehicles are too slow and dont have enough maneuverability, air vehicles cant possibly have enough armor or payload. Odd as it may seem, a two legged mech design combines the most of all three, even though its large, it can carry far more armor and weapons than most vehicles, and it still has mobility. Think of a tank the size/weight of a mech, sure it would be stable, able to take alot of punishment, and even carry a ridiculous amount of weapons, but it would be horrendously slow and turn about the same speed as a planet.

Also, for those saying that a mech is too unstable. Even an AC20 compared to the size and weight of a mech is like shooting a bullet or maybe throwing a baseball at a regular person. Sure it might hurt or do damage, but it doesnt knock you down. The only thing big enough to have a weapon large enough to actually knock a mech down from the force would be some kind of giant installation, and even then, the weapon would probably just destroy the mech before knocking it down.

[BlackIronTarkus]

Bending time have nothing to do with pyshics.

[Relic1701]

Found this ages ago....just a potted history of the IS

http://www.gamesnet....ory/history.htm

Have fun

[CDLord HHGD]

Deadxero, on 25 August 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

For example, a modern internal combustion engine would be magic to someone living in the Roman empire, but is based on concepts simple enough for an every day person, with a basic education, to understand today.

I like your analogy, but I beg to differ on this part.... You underestimate the stupidity of people my friend. I am a factory trained and certified mechanic as well as a telecom engineer (long story).... Some of the smartest people out there are also the dumbest...

Edited by cdlord, 26 August 2013 - 10:54 AM.

[Vodrin Thales]

Another interesting tidbit is that mechs actually require a form of FTL technology to function. The metal muscles that actuate the arms and legs of mechs use a form of hyperpulse generation to trigger contraction of the metal strands allowing giant stompy robots to run around at rather stunning speeds for their size.

[Rocketlaunch]

1. FTL was actually invented before Mechs.

2. This was made in the 80s.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Basically the OP is wondering why technology exists that can bend the laws of physics, yet big stompy robots are as primitive as they are (by comparison to FTL travel).

Basically it's science fiction and the OP shouldn't think that hard about it and take it at face value . If you look too hard into any science fiction, a lot of holes and nonsense arises. Just take it as it is, and enjoy the Battletech universe as it exists.

[Strum Wealh]

Vodrin Thales, on 26 August 2013 - 11:48 AM, said:

Another interesting tidbit is that mechs actually require a form of FTL technology to function. The metal muscles that actuate the arms and legs of mechs use a form of hyperpulse generation to trigger contraction of the metal strands allowing giant stompy robots to run around at rather stunning speeds for their size.

Ummm... no.
Wherever did you get that idea?

Quote

Each joint has an associated Motor Control Unit (MCU, for short) that sends commands - in the form of electrical power - to the myomer bundles. The MCUs are local managers that organize thousands of myomer fibers in each myomer bundle, contracting them and monitoring feedback. These MCUs are in turn commanded by higher-order control systems that interpret the MechWarrior’s input for the benefit of these units.

-----

A ’Mech’s muscles - called myomers - are made up of bundles of microscopically thin plastic tubes filled with a contracting substance. Each tube, basically made of polyacetylene, is individually extruded in microscopically thin forms and spun into the bundle. The contractile filling, called acti-strandular fiber, is crapped out by vats of genetically engineered bacteria, rather like how alcohol production occurs. This acti-strandular precursor material, strained out of the vats, is mixed with specific polymers, and then squirted into the tubes. The polyacetylene tubes are then electrified and the acti-strandular precursor material arranges itself into intricate, complex nanoscale structures akin to the contractile protein filaments in natural muscle (myosin and actin filaments).
When the acti-strandular fibers are stimulated by sufficient electrical energy, the fibers contract sharply. The process is virtually identical to the contraction of protein filaments in natural muscles, but with an electrical power source, rather than a chemical one. Also like natural muscle, the contraction is an all-or-nothing process. The level of strength generated by myomer bundles is regulated by the number of myomer fibers triggered, rather than the amount of current itself.

The myomers operate using electricity (produced by the Fusion Engine and controlled by the MCUs) to contract, and release when the current is shut off.

In this way, it mirrors real-world shape-memory alloys (though, SMAs are metallic rather than plastic, and don't "relax" as quickly).

Quote

SMA actuators are typically actuated electrically, where an electric current results in Joule heating. Deactivation typically occurs by free convective heat transfer to the ambient environment. Consequently, SMA actuation is typically asymmetric, with a relatively fast actuation time and a slow deactuation time. A number of methods have been proposed to reduce SMA deactivation time, including forced convection, and lagging the SMA with a conductive material in order to manipulate the heat transfer rate.

Novel methods to enhance the feasibility of SMA actuators include the use of a conductive "lagging". this method uses a thermal paste to rapidly transfer heat from the SMA by conduction. This heat is then more readily transferred to the environment by convection as the outer radii (and heat transfer area) is significantly greater than for the bare wire. This method results in a significant reduction in deactivation time and a symmetric activation profile. As a consequence of the increased heat transfer rate, the required current to achieve a given actuation force is increased.

As far as 'Mech technology goes, give pages 30-42 of TechManual a read.