54 replies to this topic

[FatBabyThompkins]

Disclaimer: I am not for the CBill reduction, but the numbers below are taken from screen shots here on the forums and my own testing. I realize there is more involved to find the total CBill payout at the end of the match, including factors going from 8 vs. 8 to 12 vs. 12. This is only a discussion of the numbers as they are represented in game.

Here are the numbers before and after (updated resource change, which did not).

This does not mean I agree with it. I just wanted to call attention that the nerf as it actually is with the numbers we know about.

Salvage has seen the biggest hit. From a limited research, average salvage for a win was in the 30k-60k range. Most recent salvage is shown to be in the 10k-12k range. This only affects a win, not a loss (you're only seeing a 10-15% reduction for a loss). However, you're seeing a 60-80% reduction in salvage and a 10-15% reduction in normal CBill generation for a win. You're still making more than a loss, but only in the 10k-12k range (on top of likely doing more kills, assists, component, savior, damage...)

Salvage study:

Spoiler

I have been trying to find salvage numbers before the patch. Here is some analysis.

(I had all of the hyperlinked, but they disappeared...)

4/19/2013: Assault, 2 kills, 5 assists, 42,825 salvage
Unknown: Assault, 4 kills, 2 assists, 1437 damage, 22,248 salvage
3/1/2013: Assault, 3 kills, 5 assists, 478 damage, 32,066 salvage
4/1/2013: Assault, 1 kill, 6 assists, 851 damage, 59,942 salvage
4/4/2013: Conquest, 1 kill, 7 assists, 407 damage, 36,452 salvage
5/16/2013: ??, 1 kill, 5 assists, 616 damage, 44,637 salvage
'': Assault, 2 kills, 4 assists, 461 damage, 37,198 salvage


Possible equation here. It boils down to [mech value] * [percentage of mech left when dead] * .02 / 8. Thus, if you had a 2mil mech that was damaged to 75% you would receive 2,000,000*.75*.02/8=3750 CBill for that one mech. With 8 mechs around that value you'd get approx 30k (which is lower than about the average above). If you increase the number to 12 mechs you'd get 2500 per mech, but then with 12 destroyed mechs you'd get... 30k again. What we are seeing now is in the 10-12k range.

Note: The way the nerf was laid out, the better you do, the more towards a 13% total nerf you will feel. This is because the win/loss/tie was not changed, but all kill/assist/def/savior/component/damage/spot/tag nerf are between 12-16% nerf). So, yes, the better you do, the worse it feels)

Table of Values:

Spoiler

	Conquest			Assault
	New	Old	Per Ch	New	Old	Per Ch
Win	25000	25000	0%	25000	25000	0%
Loss	25000	25000	0%	25000	25000	0%
Tie	25000	25000	0%	25000	25000	0%
Kill	2099	2500	16.04%	4300	5000	14%
Assist	3200	3750	14.67%	6500	7500	13.33%
Def Kill	6500	7500	13.33%	6500	7500	13.33%
Savior	6500	7500	13.33%	6500	7500	13.33%
Component	1100	1250	12%	2099	2500	16.04%
Damage	21	25	16%	21	25	16%
Spot	1100	1250	12%	1100	1250	12%
Tag/Narc	1100	1250	12%	1100	1250	12%
Resource	50	50	0%
Avg			9.11%			10.48%

Example:

Spoiler

Old system:
Win: 25,000
Kills: 5,000
Kill Assists: 30,000
Component Destruction: 7,500
Damage Done: 24,875
Savior Kills: 22,500
Salvage: ?
Resource bonus: 17,800
Total: 132,675

New (minus salvage): 119,593

(119,593-132,675)/132,675=-9.86% reduction in CBills excluding resource and salvage bonus.

Bottom line: you're receiving less per match (10-15%), matches are longer, risk is higher, salvage on a win is significantly lower. The limited reduction of production rewards (kills, assists, components...) combined with a huge reduction of salvage rewards is where people are seeing the bite.

Edited by FatBabyThompkins, 09 August 2013 - 06:07 AM.

[Jabilo]

Thank you for the hard work on the post, but you can call a loaf of bread a car all you like but you still can not drive to work in it.

People are playing games, looking at the score board and seeing their earnings Dramatically Cut.

There are dozens of screen caps, in multiple threads, of real game results showing earnings to be around 30% less in many cases.

In my opinion it is the biggest issue in the game at the moment.

NOT ONE MORE PENNY TILL WE GET A STATEMENT ON C BILL REWARDS.

[James The Fox Dixon]

Thank you FBT for doing the hard work. I really enjoy your posts and the work you do to help improve the game.

[FatBabyThompkins]

The only place I cannot research is in the salvage rewards. But it would have to be in the neighborhood of going from 60000 for a good match to now 12000 (an 80% nerf) to go into the total 30% nerf people are claiming. Unfortunately, I really don't have any screen shots from before that show salvage rewards. If indeed salvage was cut 80%, even when there are 50% more mechs to kill and given that no one really knows how to calculate the salvage bonus, that is shady. It makes it look like a 10-15% nerf with an unknowable, but sizable, nerf that you entirely control and no one, outside of a general feeling, could prove.

I also do not agree that the nerf was needed. Games are longer, risk is higher, work is harder, but resources gained is less. That is a double nerf. Get less for doing more, which is ultimately why I think people are feeling it more. In fact, if they wouldn't have touched anything (economy wise), going 12 vs 12 wouldn't be "as bad" as you could, in theory, make more. Great players would be rewarded more for their effort. More risk, more reward. Instead, with the way the matrix is tailored, you're "hit" more the better you do.

Edited by FatBabyThompkins, 08 August 2013 - 12:04 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Yes Thank you. good to see an investigation instead of a blazing complaint.

[NovaWasp]

1. OP includes the 0% change for win, loss, and tie in the average. That pulls it down. It's 12.15% with only 1 for conquest. It's. 25,000 regardless and you can only get one per match.
2. You aren't going to get 1 of each every match.
3. It's still a lot less than 30% reduction.
4. I want it raised back.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Thank you for taking the time to come up with this for comparison but there are obviously other factors at play. Last night I had a match where I had 1 kill, 7 assists and over 750 damage in a win. That would have easily netted me well over 200k, prehaps even over 250k prior to the reward changes. I ended up with only 175k. That obviously is more than a 10% cut in rewards.

For some reason the forums are bugged for me so I can't post in a screen shot but here is a prime example if you would take my word for it that is.

Quickdraw 4H

Kills: 3
Kill Assists: 5
Component Destruction: 8
Damage Done: 434
Spotting Assist: 1

C-bills earned: 241,317 w/premium. Figure roughly 161,000 without premium
Experience Earned: 1914 XP w/ premium. 1276 without premium.

So, less experience, 1 more kill, 3 less assists. 2 more component destructions and roughtly half the damage of your example gave me roughly 30k more c-bills before than I am making now. That is alot more than a 10% reduction on a match that wasn't near as good as the one in your example.

Now here is the odd part, my totals don't match up with your "old" reward levels.

A Kill = 5000 not 3500.
An Assist = 7500 not 3750.
Component Destruction = 2500 not 1250.
Spotting Assist = 2500 not 1250.

Damage was 25 just like your scale.

However a defeat earned half that.

Kill = 2500
Assist = 3750
Component Destruction = 1250

So I think we might have finally found the problem.

Victory apparenly use to DOUBLE your rewards on some things resulting in a much higher reward for a victory. Apparently we are now not recieving the bonus for winning a battle, rather they are halving the rewards for a loss.

Total friken stealth nerf beyond all comprehension. WOW!!!!

[Khobai]

I make 25% less cbills at worst. But 25% is still very noticeable.

[orcrist86]

great post, I appreciate your hard work FBT

[DemonRaziel]

Viktor Drake, on 08 August 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

Now here is the odd part, my totals don't match up with your "old" reward levels.

Some rewards are halved on Conquest mode compared to Assault mode, that is why your totals are higher - FBT's table has more columns

The salvage bonus is, I believe, divided evenly amongst all team members. Therefore if they lowered it by ~15% as all other rewards, AND it is now divided by 12 in the end, instead of 8, that is most likely the reason it's dropped significantly, even when there are more 'Mechs to salvage.

Edited by DemonRaziel, 08 August 2013 - 12:45 PM.

[FatBabyThompkins]

Viktor Drake, on 08 August 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

Thank you for taking the time to come up with this for comparison but there are obviously other factors at play. Last night I had a match where I had 1 kill, 7 assists and over 750 damage in a win. That would have easily netted me well over 200k, prehaps even over 250k prior to the reward changes. I ended up with only 175k. That obviously is more than a 10% cut in rewards.

For some reason the forums are bugged for me so I can't post in a screen shot but here is a prime example if you would take my word for it that is.

Quickdraw 4H

Kills: 3
Kill Assists: 5
Component Destruction: 8
Damage Done: 434
Spotting Assist: 1

C-bills earned: 241,317 w/premium. Figure roughly 161,000 without premium
Experience Earned: 1914 XP w/ premium. 1276 without premium.

So, less experience, 1 more kill, 3 less assists. 2 more component destructions and roughtly half the damage of your example gave me roughly 30k more c-bills before than I am making now. That is alot more than a 10% reduction on a match that wasn't near as good as the one in your example.

Now here is the odd part, my totals don't match up with your "old" reward levels.

A Kill = 5000 not 3500.
An Assist = 7500 not 3750.
Component Destruction = 2500 not 1250.
Spotting Assist = 2500 not 1250.

Damage was 25 just like your scale.

However a defeat earned half that.

Kill = 2500
Assist = 3750
Component Destruction = 1250

So I think we might have finally found the problem.

Victory apparenly use to DOUBLE your rewards on some things resulting in a much higher reward for a victory. Apparently we are now not recieving the bonus for winning a battle, rather they are halving the rewards for a loss.

Total friken stealth nerf beyond all comprehension. WOW!!!!

Interesting. (As a side note, you can use IMGUR to copy your screen shot and then paste the url in the image button in the editor).

I used this and this for old values. I didn't see anything in there about reductions for losses. There is a difference between Kills, components and assists between Assault and Conquest. Without your screen shot I can't be sure, but I assume you accounted for that.

I'll have to do more research.

And I agree this was unwarranted and there is more to the story, but all the numbers point towards 10-15% from what I can tell.

[Mystery_Poison]

Thank you for using math. Please keep in mind the additional variables that are also impacting Cbill/XP gain due to the nature of 12v12.

[FrDrake]

Viktor Drake, on 08 August 2013 - 12:33 PM, said:

Thank you for taking the time to come up with this for comparison but there are obviously other factors at play. Last night I had a match where I had 1 kill, 7 assists and over 750 damage in a win. That would have easily netted me well over 200k, prehaps even over 250k prior to the reward changes. I ended up with only 175k. That obviously is more than a 10% cut in rewards.

You do realize that the difference between 200k and 175k is 12.5% right? Almost exactly the same difference noted by the OP and way less than 30%.

*Edit* Also you must be running premium time because 1 kill 7 assist games in 8v8s would only get me 130-160k, somewhere around there depending on how many saviors and components I blew off along the way.

Edited by FrDrake, 08 August 2013 - 12:53 PM.

[FatBabyThompkins]

DemonRaziel, on 08 August 2013 - 12:42 PM, said:

The salvage bonus is, I believe, divided evenly amongst all team members. Therefore if they lowered it by ~15% as all other rewards, AND it is now divided by 12 in the end, instead of 8, that is most likely the reason it's dropped significantly, even when there are more 'Mechs to salvage.

Interesting. That could see a moderate reduction in the salvage bonus. Of course when I read salvage bonus, I assume the amount of undamaged (or non-totalled mech parts) left on the field. So if you cored a mech, the rest of the mech was summed and then distributed as a salvage bonus. Basically, salvage is the amount of unblown-up stuff on the field. This would lead me to believe 12 vs 12 would have more salvage available. They would have to do an insane nerf to account for the extra mechs (ergo salvage) and then account for the extra 15-20% of a total nerf present. Unfortunately, I have not been here long enough to know or have data to show this to be the case, just intuition, which does nothing for a factual analysis.

[Angel of Annihilation]

FatBabyThompkins, on 08 August 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Interesting. (As a side note, you can use IMGUR to copy your screen shot and then paste the url in the image button in the editor).

I used this and this for old values. I didn't see anything in there about reductions for losses. There is a difference between Kills, components and assists between Assault and Conquest. Without your screen shot I can't be sure, but I assume you accounted for that.

I'll have to do more research.

And I agree this was unwarranted and there is more to the story, but all the numbers point towards 10-15% from what I can tell.

It is the editor that doesn't work for me. I can't use any of the buttons. It really sucks because I can't bold, underline, strikethrough, use smiles or any of the other features. Tried everything I can think of but nothing seems to get them to work.

FrDrake, on 08 August 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

You do realize that the difference between 200k and 175k is 12.5% right? Almost exactly the same difference noted by the OP and way less than 30%.

I said "WELL OVER 200K" as in closer to 230-250k. That is more along the lines of 30%.

[FatBabyThompkins]

NovaWasp, on 08 August 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

1. OP includes the 0% change for win, loss, and tie in the average. That pulls it down. It's 12.15% with only 1 for conquest. It's. 25,000 regardless and you can only get one per match.
2. You aren't going to get 1 of each every match.
3. It's still a lot less than 30% reduction.
4. I want it raised back.

I only wanted to show the average reduction. A better analysis would be to consider a weighted average, but as those weights change depending upon your performance, it still would not be "accurate". You automatically start at 0% reduction and as your performance increases you move closer to 12-16%. That said, there is no way to specifically analyze salvage bonus (without a good many screen shots from before the patch, we can obviously get more after patch =)), where the lions share of a reduction may be.

[Cest7]

Increased mech count means more opportunity for rewards.

Mech number increased 33%, rewards reduced %30...?

[FrDrake]

Viktor Drake, on 08 August 2013 - 12:53 PM, said:

I said "WELL OVER 200K" as in closer to 230-250k. That is more along the lines of 30%.

So I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you really did make that much before patch and crunched some numbers and assumed you played assault and added you in savior bonuses and component destructions and some spot bonuses just in case to give you a total cbill income of 232k.

Than I ran it under the new numbers and found that for the exact same performance you would get 205k, or an 11.7% decrease from before.

Using your above screenshot let's take another look:

Old numbers ( I added savior kills to your total until they were almost the same to make up the difference because you didn't note them) 243k

New ratios: Using the exact same count total of each (kills, assists, etc) as the old ratios gave you earning 214k, or 11.9% less than before. Once again not nearly 30%

I know you like to "feel" like you're making way less, but math doesn't lie.........

Edited by FrDrake, 08 August 2013 - 01:08 PM.

[DemonRaziel]

FatBabyThompkins, on 08 August 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Of course when I read salvage bonus, I assume the amount of undamaged (or non-totalled mech parts) left on the field. So if you cored a mech, the rest of the mech was summed and then distributed as a salvage bonus. Basically, salvage is the amount of unblown-up stuff on the field. This would lead me to believe 12 vs 12 would have more salvage available. They would have to do an insane nerf to account for the extra mechs (ergo salvage) and then account for the extra 15-20% of a total nerf present.

Pretty much this. Except unlike kill/assist/destruction... rewards, the salvage bonus is not based on how well you did, it's distributed evenly across all 'Mechs in your unit.

So the bonus is now divided by 12 which offsets the added amount of salvage from +4 'Mechs. Ergo, if they also reduced the salvage bonus you get, the overall salvage will drop.

[Bhael Fire]

I've been comparing a bunch of my earnings over the last few days to some older screens that I took last month (both of post-match earnings and Acc. C-Bills Per match on profile stats). On average, I was earning around 120K per match. Now I'm Iucky if I get 80K. That's a 40K hit per match on average.

There's no question about it, instead of "balancing" it for 12 v 12, the changes they made drastically reduced the majority of everyone's average take. It needs to be revised completely.

Something like THIS.